Tech Log The very best in practical technical discussion on the web

AF447

Old 19th Oct 2009, 20:43
  #4521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It seems that a riot is starting with AF (true) professional pilots:

PETITION POUR UN VERITABLE AUDIT EXTERNE (auditexterneaf)

mermoz92 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2009, 14:29
  #4522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This from AirWise today.

A US lawyer filed suit against Airbus and many aerospace suppliers on Monday seeking unspecified compensation on behalf of relatives of eight of the 228 passengers who died when an Air France flight crashed off the coast of Brazil in June.
Details: Airbus, Others Sued In US Over Crash Off Brazil
wes_wall is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2009, 18:54
  #4523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: the City by the Bay
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Manuel Garca, Jr.: The New Crisis in Aviation
armchairpilot94116 is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2009, 19:59
  #4524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The No Transgression Zone
Posts: 2,483
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
Pprune knows how to get an Air accident discussion percolating while we're waiting
Pugilistic Animus is offline  
Old 26th Oct 2009, 23:24
  #4525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why am I not surprised. This from AirWise today.


"Our current knowledge of the accident does not allow us to put together a scenario," -- Jean-Paul Troadec, BEA.
More at:

Air France Crash Report Due In December

Don't hold your breath.
wes_wall is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 18:47
  #4526 (permalink)  
PJ2
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: BC
Age: 76
Posts: 2,484
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
France to Renew Search for Plane’s Data Recorders



By NICOLA CLARK

Published: October 26, 2009

PARIS — France is preparing to spend as much as €20 million next year on a renewed search for the flight data recorders and undersea wreckage of the Air France A330 jetliner that crashed into the Atlantic Ocean in June, killing all 228 people aboard, the new head of the French agency charged with investigating the accident said Monday.

The news comes amid mounting tension within Air France as the airline prepares for an external audit of its flight safety procedures next month.
The agency, the Bureau of Investigations and Analyses, has begun preparing for a third attempt to locate the black boxes of Air France Flight 447 that it expects will begin early next year, with the support of experts and specialized equipment from the United States, Britain, Brazil and Russia, said Jean-Paul Troadec, who took over as head of the agency this month.

The agency, which has already spent roughly €10 million, or $15 million, scouring the ocean floor for clues to what caused the accident, plans to spend an additional €10 million to €20 million for the next phase of the search, Mr. Troadec said.

Air France Flight 447 left Rio de Janeiro and was en route to Paris when it went down on June 1 during strong thunderstorms in an area about 960 kilometers, or 600 miles, off northern Brazil. Search teams recovered over 600 pieces of debris from the ocean, representing about 5 percent of the airframe, investigators have said. The bulk of the wreckage has not been found and is presumed to be lying on the mountainous seabed, deep below the ocean surface.

Investigators have yet to pinpoint the cause of the disaster, although they suspect that a malfunction of the aircraft’s speed sensors may have contributed to the crash. A preliminary report published in July said an examination of the floating debris indicated that the plane had hit the water intact.

“We still don’t know what happened in the cockpit, and we will need to find and analyze the recorders to understand,” Mr. Troadec said at the agency’s offices in Le Bourget, near Paris. “Our knowledge of this accident does not allow us to develop a scenario.”

But he did say that autopsy reports recently received from Brazilian medical examiners appeared to confirm that the crash victims died “on impact with the water.”

In December, the agency plans to publish a second intermediate report that will include detailed analysis of the evidence gathered so far as well as some recommendations about how to improve the storage and transmission of flight data to aid future crash investigations, Mr. Troadec said.

Investigators in July abandoned an audio search for the flight recorders’ “pingers,” which are designed to emit a signal for 30 to 40 days. A second phase of the hunt, using diving equipment and sonar scanners towed by a French frigate, ended in September without success. Mr. Troadec there had been no further search activity.
PJ2 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 19:07
  #4527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: GPS L INVALID
Posts: 579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Huh - I wonder what they plan on doing to find it - now that there is absolutely no chance on earth that the pinger still operates... Are they going to sonar scan the entire ocean floor and just look for a rectangular 14*13*32cm box? Beats me
STBYRUD is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 20:05
  #4528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: IAH
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
France to Renew Search for Plane’s Data Recorders

Thanks PJ2 for posting that update report. I hope that the third search will last longer than the previous ones. Unless the fuselage disintegrated into small pieces upon impact, I would think that they must find more of the missing 95% which lies at the bottom of the ocean, especially the tail. Has nobody attempted to do computer simulations at BEA? Is that not possible in this day and age of high tech? How about NASA?
promani is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 20:32
  #4529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,569
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Huh - I wonder what they plan on doing to find it - now that there is absolutely no chance on earth that the pinger still operates... Are they going to sonar scan the entire ocean floor and just look for a rectangular 14*13*32cm box? Beats me
They look for the big stuff and hope for the small things like black (orange. & white) boxes.

Even with some of the big stuff an awful lot can be discerned from photos on the seabed so at least it's progress.

patience
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2009, 20:38
  #4530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Oxenfforrdde
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Stbyrud

It was either Air India, or SAA 'Helderberg' (feel free to correct me anyone) boxes, I think, that was pulled from deep (though not remotely as mountainous) water after about a year's search.

So yes, it may be possible if the will is there
Tyres O'Flaherty is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2009, 16:46
  #4531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SUSSEX UK
Age: 76
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Stbyrud - 1987 a Boeing 747 Helderberg search

In Johan Strümpfer's DEEP OCEAN SEARCH PLANNING - the search for the Boeing 747 of South African Airways Flight 295, he reported that ocean depth was in places over 5 km deep and very mountainous. The wreckage was located at a depth of 4.4 kilometres.

Three debris fields were found: 19°10'30?S 59°38'0?E? / ?19.175°S 59.633333°E? / -19.175; 59.633333? (SA Helderberg Debris Site1).

19°9'53?S 59°38'32?E? / ?19.16472°S 59.64222°E? / -19.16472; 59.64222? (SA Helderberg Debris Site2)

and 19°9'15?S 59°37'25?E? / ?19.15417°S 59.62361°E? / -19.15417; 59.62361? (SA Helderberg Debris Site3).

These locations are 1.5, 2.3 and 2.5 km apart, which indicates that the aircraft broke up before crashing into the Ocean. The extent of the wreckage field was attributed to dispersion of the wreckage during the estimated 80 or more minutes the wreckage took to sink. The aircraft wreckage was found some two months after the accident during the sonar search phase. A further photographic survey and recorder search phase was conducted one year later, at which time the CVR was located.
BJ-ENG is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2009, 16:53
  #4532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Then perhaps the French should be talking to whomever it was that undertook the search for wreckage of Flt 295 ie, what equipment did they use, the methodology used, etc. I can't imagine it would hurt asking someone who has successfully undertaken such an endeavor, and succeeded.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2009, 17:55
  #4533 (permalink)  

Rotate on this!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 64
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Then perhaps the French should be talking to whomever it was that undertook the search for wreckage of Flt 295 ie, what equipment did they use, the methodology used, etc. I can't imagine it would hurt asking someone who has successfully undertaken such an endeavor, and succeeded."

The team undertaking the search is not the same group as the Flt 295.
SLFguy is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2009, 22:23
  #4534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: The frozen north....
Age: 49
Posts: 547
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
There are meetings currently ongoing regarding the search methodology, technology & timescales etc however I can assure you there is a deep tow sonar system capable of locating very small objects at depths down to 6000m, this search will require no more than 4000m.

Again at this stage I cant say any more but rest assured a new phase of the search using appropriate technology is currently being worked on.
Unusual Attitude is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 13:34
  #4535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Again at this stage I cant say any more but rest assured a new phase of the search using appropriate technology is currently being worked on.
Interesting. Begs the question however, why wasn't ths done initially? Keep rocking the baby, sooner or later it will go to sleep and all can relax. I fear very little will be forth coming, and some mondane position will be taken with a comparable statement from the BEA closing the issue.

Has anything official (other than ABC) been issued relative to the medical exams of the victums? The news indicated some may have been alive after the accident.
wes_wall is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 18:25
  #4536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
On AI182, they located the pingers within two weeks of the accident. The pingers led to recovery of both boxes, and both boxes were ashore within three weeks of the accident.
SaturnV is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 18:34
  #4537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
wes wall, IIRC, one of the countries now involved was not involved in the first two searches. And I rather suspect the side-scan sonar being used this time was not available previously, and its deployment and use required approval at a fairly high government level.
SaturnV is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 18:43
  #4538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Patterson, NY
Age: 66
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@SLFguy,

Yes, I know the team searching for AF447 is not the same as that which recovered flt 295. That's why I wrote that the former should be talking to the latter.
rgbrock1 is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 18:49
  #4539 (permalink)  

Rotate on this!
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Aberdeen
Age: 64
Posts: 403
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry rgb... badly phrased by me - I was just clarifying that it was a different team.
SLFguy is offline  
Old 29th Oct 2009, 19:33
  #4540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: I am where I am and that's all where I am.
Posts: 660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
SaturnV remarked
On AI182, they located the pingers within two weeks of the accident. The pingers led to recovery of both boxes, and both boxes were ashore within three weeks of the accident.
Unless I miss my guess the depth was considerably less and the terrain considerably smoother where AI182 went down near 51N 15W. That makes location a whole lot easier. I seem to remember reading here that the pinger receivers used were limited to something above the tops of the underwater mountains. The debris is probably down in a canyon somewhere and will be hard to find.

The numbers for depth of pinger receiver, its expected range, and the depth of the mountainous ocean floor where AF447 went down left me wondering, "Why bother except to put on a good show?"

JD-EE
JD-EE is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.