AF447
This thread is about AF447
- It is not about CBs.
- Even non fliers know that flying into CBs is dangerous.
No more arguments from me. Just hope that readers understand how the above quote relates to post #2273.
- Even non fliers know that flying into CBs is dangerous.
Declining pilot skills is an issue but by discussing it here we infer it was applicable to 447
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can I suggest that most commercial pilots of the 'new' school will never have the opportunity to experience difficult situations in real flight because the aircraft sytems won't allow them to get into this position in the first place! You cannot blame them for not having this experience.
How, I ask, do you propose that the newer generation gain this flight experience apart from in a simm - let them do their first 1000 hours in a DC2?
How, I ask, do you propose that the newer generation gain this flight experience apart from in a simm - let them do their first 1000 hours in a DC2?
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Good ol' USA
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DC2 time
I agree, hand's on is lacking. High altitude Radar knowledge, needs to be improved, as the new generation aircraft are flying higher, with less low and high speed stall margins. Seen all of it many times in the last 40 some years.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: us
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flyinheavy,
AP PARIS – Air France says the bodies of the chief pilot of Flight 447 and a flight attendant have been retrieved from the Atlantic.
The airline says in on its Web site that the two are among those identified in the international search operation for remains of the 228 victims and wreckage of the May 31 crash. The airline hasn't identified crew members by name, but a pilots' union named the captain as Marc Dubois.
The airline says in on its Web site that the two are among those identified in the international search operation for remains of the 228 victims and wreckage of the May 31 crash. The airline hasn't identified crew members by name, but a pilots' union named the captain as Marc Dubois.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain found
sitting in the terminal on my way home and watching the news and they say that the captain and one steward have been found and identified. Information also backed up from airfrance they say.
Hopefully the BB will be found soon to clearify who were where when it happened/
Regrds
Wings1011
Hopefully the BB will be found soon to clearify who were where when it happened/
Regrds
Wings1011
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Brazil
Age: 76
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots body
Reliable local news here in Brazil says the pilots body and that of another crew member have been identified..Pilot, not co-pilot etc... but do not know if other crew member was a pilot or cabin crew
Seems to me, as a humble PPL, that most of the debris, seat, bodies etc have all come from the front of the aircraft
Seems to me, as a humble PPL, that most of the debris, seat, bodies etc have all come from the front of the aircraft
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: France
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Press point by BEA on the 02/07/09
"Communiqué de presse diffusé le 25 juin 2009 : Dans le cadre de la publication d’un premier rapport factuel sur l’accident survenu le 1er juin 2009 à l’A330-200, immatriculé F-GZCP, le BEA tiendra un point presse dans ses locaux au Bourget le jeudi 2 juillet de 15 h à 17 h. Les journalistes qui souhaitent y assister sont priés de confirmer leur présence auprès de Martine Del Bono."
"Press release published on June 25, 2009: Within the framework of the publication of a first factual report on the accident which has occurred on June 1, 2009 to the A330-200 registered F-GZCP, the BEA will hold a press point in its office in Le Bourget on Thursday July 2 from 15:00 to 17:00.
Journalists who wish to attend are requested to confirm their presence at Martine Del Bono".
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses
Media are now announcing that the first report will be published the 30th of June, next Tuedsay
"Press release published on June 25, 2009: Within the framework of the publication of a first factual report on the accident which has occurred on June 1, 2009 to the A330-200 registered F-GZCP, the BEA will hold a press point in its office in Le Bourget on Thursday July 2 from 15:00 to 17:00.
Journalists who wish to attend are requested to confirm their presence at Martine Del Bono".
Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses
Media are now announcing that the first report will be published the 30th of June, next Tuedsay
Last edited by Squawk_ident; 25th Jun 2009 at 14:58.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a fair working assumption that the bodies which have been found so far were at some point thrown clear. This would have had a far better chance of happening if they were not strapped in. If the captain was in the cabin when the event happened he may have tried to get back to the flight deck, but got pinned down by heavy g's. This would also account for him being found with a steward and not another pilot. Typically, the tube breaks just forward of the wing spar when bent enough - that would be the area where the cabin crew rest bunks are located.
If the assumption about bodies being thrown clear is correct, then more than 50 people were not strapped in, or were out of their seats - 25% of the loading - a fairly average number mid-flight. This would also point to a sudden event and not a gradual deterioration. Again, the sudden g's would have prevented any return to seats.
The SATCOM/ACARS could have continued functioning for a few minutes after the aircraft had already stopped flying, giving the potentially false impression that pilots still had some control.
It is very tempting to continue speculating - in 2000 posts somebody has probably got it right - but a line needs to be drawn between trying to interpret what data we have, and just thowing out blind theories.
If the assumption about bodies being thrown clear is correct, then more than 50 people were not strapped in, or were out of their seats - 25% of the loading - a fairly average number mid-flight. This would also point to a sudden event and not a gradual deterioration. Again, the sudden g's would have prevented any return to seats.
The SATCOM/ACARS could have continued functioning for a few minutes after the aircraft had already stopped flying, giving the potentially false impression that pilots still had some control.
It is very tempting to continue speculating - in 2000 posts somebody has probably got it right - but a line needs to be drawn between trying to interpret what data we have, and just thowing out blind theories.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: No one's home...
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone else come across this post? Its reportedly a Delta (NW) A330.
Does anyone know about its validity?
Does anyone know about its validity?
Yesterday while coming up from Hong Kong to Tokyo, a 1700nm 4hr. flight, we experienced the same problems Air France had while flying thru bad weather. I have a link to the failures that occurred on AF 447. My list is almost the same. http://www.eurocockpit.com/images/acars447.php
The problem I suspect is the pitot tubes ice over and you loose your airspeed indication along with the auto pilot, auto throttles and rudder limit protection. The rudder limit protection keeps you from over stressing the rudder at high speed.
Synopsis;
Tuesday 23, 2009 10am en-route HKG to NRT. Entering Nara Japan airspace.
FL390 mostly clear with occasional isolated areas of rain, clouds tops about FL410.
Outside air temperature was -50C TAT -21C (your not supposed to get liquid water at these temps). We did.
As we were following other aircraft along our route. We approached a large area of rain below us. Tilting the weather radar down we could see the heavy rain below, displayed in red. At our altitude the radar indicated green or light precipitation, most likely ice crystals we thought.
Entering the cloud tops we experienced just light to moderate turbulence. (The winds were around 30kts at altitude.) After about 15 sec. we encountered moderate rain. We thought it odd to have rain streaming up the windshield at this altitude and the sound of the plane getting pelted like an aluminum garage door. It got very warm and humid in the cockpit all of a sudden. Five seconds later the Captains, First Officers, and standby airspeed indicators rolled back to 60kts. The auto pilot and auto throttles disengaged. The Master Warning and Master Caution flashed, and the sounds of chirps and clicks letting us know these things were happening.
Jerry S, the Capt. hand flew the plane on the shortest vector out of the rain. The airspeed indicators briefly came back but failed again. The failure lasted for THREE minutes. We flew the recommended 83%N1 power setting. When the airspeed indicators came back. we were within 5 knots of our desired speed. Everything returned to normal except for the computer logic controlling the plane. (We were in alternate law for the rest of the flight.)
We had good conditions for the failure; daylight, we were rested, relatively small area, and light turbulence. I think it could have been much worse. Jerry did a great job flying and staying cool. We did our procedures called dispatch and maintenance on the SAT COM and landed in Narita. That's it.
The problem I suspect is the pitot tubes ice over and you loose your airspeed indication along with the auto pilot, auto throttles and rudder limit protection. The rudder limit protection keeps you from over stressing the rudder at high speed.
Synopsis;
Tuesday 23, 2009 10am en-route HKG to NRT. Entering Nara Japan airspace.
FL390 mostly clear with occasional isolated areas of rain, clouds tops about FL410.
Outside air temperature was -50C TAT -21C (your not supposed to get liquid water at these temps). We did.
As we were following other aircraft along our route. We approached a large area of rain below us. Tilting the weather radar down we could see the heavy rain below, displayed in red. At our altitude the radar indicated green or light precipitation, most likely ice crystals we thought.
Entering the cloud tops we experienced just light to moderate turbulence. (The winds were around 30kts at altitude.) After about 15 sec. we encountered moderate rain. We thought it odd to have rain streaming up the windshield at this altitude and the sound of the plane getting pelted like an aluminum garage door. It got very warm and humid in the cockpit all of a sudden. Five seconds later the Captains, First Officers, and standby airspeed indicators rolled back to 60kts. The auto pilot and auto throttles disengaged. The Master Warning and Master Caution flashed, and the sounds of chirps and clicks letting us know these things were happening.
Jerry S, the Capt. hand flew the plane on the shortest vector out of the rain. The airspeed indicators briefly came back but failed again. The failure lasted for THREE minutes. We flew the recommended 83%N1 power setting. When the airspeed indicators came back. we were within 5 knots of our desired speed. Everything returned to normal except for the computer logic controlling the plane. (We were in alternate law for the rest of the flight.)
We had good conditions for the failure; daylight, we were rested, relatively small area, and light turbulence. I think it could have been much worse. Jerry did a great job flying and staying cool. We did our procedures called dispatch and maintenance on the SAT COM and landed in Narita. That's it.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Away
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm here tonight as I've heard about the Captain's body. But there's scant info, as expected. Instead, we have this Delta nonsense. You asked, so here's my oar. It's bollox. "The temperature on the flight deck became warm..." as it does, of course. Was that because of a failure of the packs, or the airspeed? Keep it real.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dysag - yes you are right. LD-MCR - just aft of the wing in the rear cargo compartment. Actually I only said that there was a tendency for the fuselage to break forward of the wing in various crash scenarios. The inference was that anything either side of the break point would spill out.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: No one's home...
Posts: 416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TTCSE, no flight data or time stamp other than day.
The web says Delta does Narita Atlanta, New York and Salt Lake. ..
(duh)
I should have read closer. The flt was Hong Kong to Narita. And the initial report says the crew contacted dispatch.
I searched the FAA incident and FAA irregularity report web sites. NOTHING.
The web says Delta does Narita Atlanta, New York and Salt Lake. ..
(duh)
I should have read closer. The flt was Hong Kong to Narita. And the initial report says the crew contacted dispatch.
I searched the FAA incident and FAA irregularity report web sites. NOTHING.
Last edited by wileydog3; 25th Jun 2009 at 14:49.
A Runyonesque Character
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The South of France ... Not
Age: 74
Posts: 1,209
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
wileydog3: Yes, I've seen that e-mail (including the name of the sender) forwarded by a retired Captain who flew with him out of NW's Tokyo base.
The incident happened on Tuesday
The sooner it's in teh mainstream of the accident investigation the better, I think.
The incident happened on Tuesday
The sooner it's in teh mainstream of the accident investigation the better, I think.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air France says the bodies of the chief pilot of Flight 447 and a flight attendant have been retrieved from the Atlantic.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Midpines, CA
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding Delta (NW) A330
It sounds like this oversimplifys what may happen in terms of the rudder limiting.
Per the A330 FCOM Flight Controls Description:
"Rudder and pedal deflection is limited as a function of the speed. Each limiter channel is controlled and monitored by its associated SEC. In case of double SEC failure, the max rudder deflection remains at the value reached before failure ; then, a max deflection is available when the slats are extended."
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety
The problem I suspect is the pitot tubes ice over and you loose your airspeed indication along with the auto pilot, auto throttles and rudder limit protection. The rudder limit protection keeps you from over stressing the rudder at high speed.
Per the A330 FCOM Flight Controls Description:
"Rudder and pedal deflection is limited as a function of the speed. Each limiter channel is controlled and monitored by its associated SEC. In case of double SEC failure, the max rudder deflection remains at the value reached before failure ; then, a max deflection is available when the slats are extended."
SmartCockpit - Airline training guides, Aviation, Operations, Safety