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Old 25th Jun 2009, 06:45
  #2281 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
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Plans for Phase 2 of CVR/FDR Search

"Air France 447 Search Effort: Phase II Fact Sheet
June 24, 2009
C & C Technologies, Inc. (C & C) has received inquiries regarding our discussions with the French BEA on the second phase of the AF447 search effort.

The following information may help minimize communication errors:

1) Pinger Life: Dukane, the AF447 pinger manufacturer, has confirmed that the pingers may only last a day or so longer than the specified thirty days. Unlike regular flashlight batteries that fade out slowly, the battery technology used in the pingers will hold its voltage for the thirty days, and then quickly collapse along with the transmitted signal.

2) Contact by BEA: The French BEA has contacted C & C by phone and e-mail regarding use of C & C's 4,500 meter (15,000 feet) rated autonomous underwater vehicle (AUV) to perform a sonar search for the flight recorders. C & C has two 250 foot (76 meter) ships near the crash area equipped with state-of-theart AUV systems. However, the AUVs on those vessels are only rated for 3,000 meters (10,000 feet), and the wreck area approaches 4,500 meters. If the pingers are not found by the end of June, French authorities may ask C & C to send its 4,500 meter rated AUV to Brazil to search the mountainous underwater terrain.

3) Comments Regarding BEA's Actions: While the first phase of the search for the flight recorders continues, the BEA is making contingency plans for a second phase. Tapping C & C's world-renowned deepwater AUV search capability indicates the French authorities' commitment to locate the recorders and solve the mystery. Given the complexity of the situation, the BEA is making all the right moves.

4) AUV Description: Like the unmanned drone aircraft used by the military, AUVs are unmanned, untethered, computer controlled underwater vehicles. C & C's 4,500 meter rated vehicle is capable of searching large areas while flying at a constant height off the ocean bottom at four knots for two days at a time before returning to the surface to refuel. ..."

Lafayette Company Assists in AirFrance Efforts
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 07:46
  #2282 (permalink)  
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by PJ2
So. Do you believe the rumour or are you posting it here to see if others do?
- does this mean that someone (Swish266??) has information on the a/c tech state at dispatch? Please share it, Swish.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 08:54
  #2283 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2009
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This thread is about AF447

- It is not about CBs.
- Even non fliers know that flying into CBs is dangerous.

Declining pilot skills is an issue but by discussing it here we infer it was applicable to 447
No more arguments from me. Just hope that readers understand how the above quote relates to post #2273.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 09:31
  #2284 (permalink)  
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Declining pilot skills is an issue but by discussing it here we infer it was applicable to 447
Do you mean 'we imply it was applicable to 447?
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 09:33
  #2285 (permalink)  
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Can I suggest that most commercial pilots of the 'new' school will never have the opportunity to experience difficult situations in real flight because the aircraft sytems won't allow them to get into this position in the first place! You cannot blame them for not having this experience.
How, I ask, do you propose that the newer generation gain this flight experience apart from in a simm - let them do their first 1000 hours in a DC2?
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 10:06
  #2286 (permalink)  
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DC2 time

I agree, hand's on is lacking. High altitude Radar knowledge, needs to be improved, as the new generation aircraft are flying higher, with less low and high speed stall margins. Seen all of it many times in the last 40 some years.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 11:29
  #2287 (permalink)  
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AP PARIS – Air France says the bodies of the chief pilot of Flight 447 and a flight attendant have been retrieved from the Atlantic.

The airline says in on its Web site that the two are among those identified in the international search operation for remains of the 228 victims and wreckage of the May 31 crash. The airline hasn't identified crew members by name, but a pilots' union named the captain as Marc Dubois.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 11:31
  #2288 (permalink)  
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Captain found

sitting in the terminal on my way home and watching the news and they say that the captain and one steward have been found and identified. Information also backed up from airfrance they say.
Hopefully the BB will be found soon to clearify who were where when it happened/


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Old 25th Jun 2009, 11:32
  #2289 (permalink)  
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Pilots body

Reliable local news here in Brazil says the pilots body and that of another crew member have been identified..Pilot, not co-pilot etc... but do not know if other crew member was a pilot or cabin crew
Seems to me, as a humble PPL, that most of the debris, seat, bodies etc have all come from the front of the aircraft
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 12:13
  #2290 (permalink)  
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If the Captains body has been found then there is plainly an implication, but no more than that, that he was not at the controls.
Old 25th Jun 2009, 12:23
  #2291 (permalink)  
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Gringobr- the Fin!!

BB don't see that at all. Why do you suggest that?
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 12:33
  #2292 (permalink)  
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Press point by BEA on the 02/07/09

"Communiqué de presse diffusé le 25 juin 2009 : Dans le cadre de la publication d’un premier rapport factuel sur l’accident survenu le 1er juin 2009 à l’A330-200, immatriculé F-GZCP, le BEA tiendra un point presse dans ses locaux au Bourget le jeudi 2 juillet de 15 h à 17 h. Les journalistes qui souhaitent y assister sont priés de confirmer leur présence auprès de Martine Del Bono."

"Press release published on June 25, 2009: Within the framework of the publication of a first factual report on the accident which has occurred on June 1, 2009 to the A330-200 registered F-GZCP, the BEA will hold a press point in its office in Le Bourget on Thursday July 2 from 15:00 to 17:00.
Journalists who wish to attend are requested to confirm their presence at Martine Del Bono".

Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses

Media are now announcing that the first report will be published the 30th of June, next Tuedsay

Last edited by Squawk_ident; 25th Jun 2009 at 14:58.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 13:29
  #2293 (permalink)  
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It's a fair working assumption that the bodies which have been found so far were at some point thrown clear. This would have had a far better chance of happening if they were not strapped in. If the captain was in the cabin when the event happened he may have tried to get back to the flight deck, but got pinned down by heavy g's. This would also account for him being found with a steward and not another pilot. Typically, the tube breaks just forward of the wing spar when bent enough - that would be the area where the cabin crew rest bunks are located.

If the assumption about bodies being thrown clear is correct, then more than 50 people were not strapped in, or were out of their seats - 25% of the loading - a fairly average number mid-flight. This would also point to a sudden event and not a gradual deterioration. Again, the sudden g's would have prevented any return to seats.

The SATCOM/ACARS could have continued functioning for a few minutes after the aircraft had already stopped flying, giving the potentially false impression that pilots still had some control.

It is very tempting to continue speculating - in 2000 posts somebody has probably got it right - but a line needs to be drawn between trying to interpret what data we have, and just thowing out blind theories.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 13:36
  #2294 (permalink)  
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Has anyone else come across this post? Its reportedly a Delta (NW) A330.
Does anyone know about its validity?

Yesterday while coming up from Hong Kong to Tokyo, a 1700nm 4hr. flight, we experienced the same problems Air France had while flying thru bad weather. I have a link to the failures that occurred on AF 447. My list is almost the same.

The problem I suspect is the pitot tubes ice over and you loose your airspeed indication along with the auto pilot, auto throttles and rudder limit protection. The rudder limit protection keeps you from over stressing the rudder at high speed.

Tuesday 23, 2009 10am en-route HKG to NRT. Entering Nara Japan airspace.

FL390 mostly clear with occasional isolated areas of rain, clouds tops about FL410.
Outside air temperature was -50C TAT -21C (your not supposed to get liquid water at these temps). We did.

As we were following other aircraft along our route. We approached a large area of rain below us. Tilting the weather radar down we could see the heavy rain below, displayed in red. At our altitude the radar indicated green or light precipitation, most likely ice crystals we thought.

Entering the cloud tops we experienced just light to moderate turbulence. (The winds were around 30kts at altitude.) After about 15 sec. we encountered moderate rain. We thought it odd to have rain streaming up the windshield at this altitude and the sound of the plane getting pelted like an aluminum garage door. It got very warm and humid in the cockpit all of a sudden. Five seconds later the Captains, First Officers, and standby airspeed indicators rolled back to 60kts. The auto pilot and auto throttles disengaged. The Master Warning and Master Caution flashed, and the sounds of chirps and clicks letting us know these things were happening.
Jerry S, the Capt. hand flew the plane on the shortest vector out of the rain. The airspeed indicators briefly came back but failed again. The failure lasted for THREE minutes. We flew the recommended 83%N1 power setting. When the airspeed indicators came back. we were within 5 knots of our desired speed. Everything returned to normal except for the computer logic controlling the plane. (We were in alternate law for the rest of the flight.)

We had good conditions for the failure; daylight, we were rested, relatively small area, and light turbulence. I think it could have been much worse. Jerry did a great job flying and staying cool. We did our procedures called dispatch and maintenance on the SAT COM and landed in Narita. That's it.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 13:40
  #2295 (permalink)  
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Cabin crew bunks are located in the LDMCR which is placed just AFT of the wing box, not forward as you claim.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 13:43
  #2296 (permalink)  
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I'm here tonight as I've heard about the Captain's body. But there's scant info, as expected. Instead, we have this Delta nonsense. You asked, so here's my oar. It's bollox. "The temperature on the flight deck became warm..." as it does, of course. Was that because of a failure of the packs, or the airspeed? Keep it real.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 14:01
  #2297 (permalink)  
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Dysag - yes you are right. LD-MCR - just aft of the wing in the rear cargo compartment. Actually I only said that there was a tendency for the fuselage to break forward of the wing in various crash scenarios. The inference was that anything either side of the break point would spill out.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 14:03
  #2298 (permalink)  
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TTCSE, no flight data or time stamp other than day.

The web says Delta does Narita Atlanta, New York and Salt Lake. ..


I should have read closer. The flt was Hong Kong to Narita. And the initial report says the crew contacted dispatch.

I searched the FAA incident and FAA irregularity report web sites. NOTHING.

Last edited by wileydog3; 25th Jun 2009 at 14:49.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 14:15
  #2299 (permalink)  

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wileydog3: Yes, I've seen that e-mail (including the name of the sender) forwarded by a retired Captain who flew with him out of NW's Tokyo base.

The incident happened on Tuesday

The sooner it's in teh mainstream of the accident investigation the better, I think.
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Old 25th Jun 2009, 14:42
  #2300 (permalink)  
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Air France says the bodies of the chief pilot of Flight 447 and a flight attendant have been retrieved from the Atlantic.
Not to suggest anything, but recall, part of the crew rest module was recovered.
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