EMB 145 question
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EMB 145 question
Sorry if this is going over old ground. I was departing this evening and asked the stewardess quietly if we would be de-icing due to a large area of the upper wing being coated in frost. She looked at it and in fairness went and advised the captain and then came back to advise me that it was only frost from refuelling. I know this is the cold soak frost but you do hear lots of reports claiming that the wing should be clean no matter what. I was also mindful of the incident with the SAS aircraft in which ice from the cold soak broke off and damaged both of the tail engines. Is the EMB145 ok in this instance, should I have stayed quiet? I took a photo just before taxiing
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Your picture quite clearly shows a wing that should have been de-iced.
I recommend you send the picture along with the flight details to the ops department of the airline concerned asking for an explanation of why the captain chose to depart like that and the excerpt from the company ops manual that allowed it.
Shocking. There is no excuse for this. You were absolutely correct to raise this and please do so again. I would have asked to get off.
I recommend you send the picture along with the flight details to the ops department of the airline concerned asking for an explanation of why the captain chose to depart like that and the excerpt from the company ops manual that allowed it.
Shocking. There is no excuse for this. You were absolutely correct to raise this and please do so again. I would have asked to get off.
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I would concur with Hoppy. You really can't let this kind of thing slide; the next time somebody might get hurt. It might be best to attempt a contact with the airline safety department.
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I would never defend anybody who departs with icing on the wing , but my question would be, what was the outside temperature when that happened.
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I have been flying this type of aircraft for some years but have never seen icing on top of the wing, due to cold soak(fuel below zero, but outside above zero, otherwise it would be frost rather than cold soak).
Underneath the wing on many occasions and if it is reasonably warm, say above 10c and you try to do a quick turn around , ridges of ice will form very rapidly.
Maybe it was condensation and if not, you should definitly report this incident to the company and maybe to the CAA , but would definitly find out first what temperature it was.
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I have been flying this type of aircraft for some years but have never seen icing on top of the wing, due to cold soak(fuel below zero, but outside above zero, otherwise it would be frost rather than cold soak).
Underneath the wing on many occasions and if it is reasonably warm, say above 10c and you try to do a quick turn around , ridges of ice will form very rapidly.
Maybe it was condensation and if not, you should definitly report this incident to the company and maybe to the CAA , but would definitly find out first what temperature it was.
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Did you see the Captain do his pre flight inspection? I fly this type also and have never seen frost due to cold soak on the top of the wing, underneath regularly and obviously. Check the OAT as advised above, personally it looks like condensation to me. I cannot imagine why they would want to depart knowingly with a contaminated upper surface.
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If that was indeed frost, and not condensation, that aircraft should not have dispatched.
The E145, like many other aircraft, is tolerant to frost on the underside of the wing but not on the upper surface.
The vast majority of a wings lift is generated from the upper surface. Ice, frost and other contaminates disturb the airflow over the wing surface and change its characteristics. This can have a dramatic effect on the stalling profile of the aircraft - and never for the better.
The E145, like many other aircraft, is tolerant to frost on the underside of the wing but not on the upper surface.
The vast majority of a wings lift is generated from the upper surface. Ice, frost and other contaminates disturb the airflow over the wing surface and change its characteristics. This can have a dramatic effect on the stalling profile of the aircraft - and never for the better.
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Thanks for the replies. I don't wish to disclose the airline/airport just in case it is condensation as you suggest. I didn't see a walk round but I don't think we would have seen it as we arrived by bus on a remote stand.I do take this flight regularly and always take 12A and I've never seen this on the wing. It was clearly white and during the take off roll it remained undisturbed. The plane climbed without any issue although it was only around 50% full. Driving to the airport there were intermittent heavy snow/sleet showers with frequent cloud breaks. By the time we boarded darkness had fallen and we had clear skies with no clouds. It felt very cold but I couldn't accurately state the temperature. When we landed in clearly much warmer conditions (+5 degC in the car) then you could only see moisture drops on the wing that is normal. To me it looked exactly like the frost that begins to appear on your car when the temperature drops below freezing late on a clear evening. The pilot told the stewardess that it was frost due to recent refuelling which she relayed to me. Although not necessarily relevant I was also a little surprised that the pilot didn't make any type of welcome announcement or any other announcement either before during or after the flight although I suppose he's not obliged to do so.
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The problem with saying "it just looks like condensation" is that the original poster reports that the stweardess told him it was "frost" from defuelling.
That implies, if correctly stated, that the captain told her it was frost. And if he knew (thought) he had frost on the upper surface and didn't deice ...
That implies, if correctly stated, that the captain told her it was frost. And if he knew (thought) he had frost on the upper surface and didn't deice ...
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No.
And from this info:
So it was below 5 C at origin, and likely below 0.
That means that even if the frost were cold fuel driven, and even if you were allowed "fuel frost" there, most allowances for frost due to cold fuel don't apply - because you can't know that it's not environmental frost, rather than fuel frost.
Oh, and I agree with FE Hoppy. I would have refused to fly, if I couldn't have got the crew to do something. (And arguably its my legal duty to do something - I'd hate to quietly walk off an aircraft I knew was unsafe, or likely to be unsafe, without warning anyone, and have it subsequently crash. Never mind the moral issues, I'm sure there are jurisdictions where I'd be flirting with a manslaughter charge of some kind)
And from this info:
When we landed in clearly much warmer conditions (+5 degC in the car)
That means that even if the frost were cold fuel driven, and even if you were allowed "fuel frost" there, most allowances for frost due to cold fuel don't apply - because you can't know that it's not environmental frost, rather than fuel frost.
Oh, and I agree with FE Hoppy. I would have refused to fly, if I couldn't have got the crew to do something. (And arguably its my legal duty to do something - I'd hate to quietly walk off an aircraft I knew was unsafe, or likely to be unsafe, without warning anyone, and have it subsequently crash. Never mind the moral issues, I'm sure there are jurisdictions where I'd be flirting with a manslaughter charge of some kind)
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Had the same type of upper surface wing ice 2day in CPH. It was over a smaller area, but it was upper wing ice. The flap and wing surface above the spar can maintain cold soak causing ice in these regions causing ice where the dew point temp is above temp of surfaces.
Answer for us was de ice. Tactile test sorts the problem of de ice or not de ice. Wouldn't judge on the the instance in question becouse I was not there.
I think descent profile on the inbound sector would have an effect also. Continuous descent at idle down to the marker will reduce the chance for the airframe to warm in the lower levels from -60deg in the cruise.
Deep and Fast
Only place I like ice is in a Gin and Tonic
Answer for us was de ice. Tactile test sorts the problem of de ice or not de ice. Wouldn't judge on the the instance in question becouse I was not there.
I think descent profile on the inbound sector would have an effect also. Continuous descent at idle down to the marker will reduce the chance for the airframe to warm in the lower levels from -60deg in the cruise.
Deep and Fast
Only place I like ice is in a Gin and Tonic
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Tis is clearly moisture!!!!! it looks identical to rime icing and its ontop of the wing not the leading edge!! which is where rime icing forms!! now what were the conditions outside interms of met at the time??? are we 10degC or above and with a tempnear the dewpoint?? if so dew/moisture will form! if it has not stuck to th wing it is not ice....its H2O in liquid form........should we de-ice in 12degC and it is raining???? if the capt has done the walk-around during turnaround he/she would hav seen this clearly and touched it to see if was or was not ice. buy the way......its nowhere near the fuel cells!
i would also like to add...........dont think twice.....deice!
i would also like to add...........dont think twice.....deice!
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The date's wrong because I reset my phone recently and haven't bothered to change the date/time. Today it says it's 20th March 08! I'll probably adjust it at some point.
It was likely to be close to or below 0 degC by the way. Heavy snow showers on the way to the airport a few hours earlier and at the time of boarding the skies were clear and it felt very cold on the way to the plane.
Can't be sure though and so it could be condensation although it didn,t get disturbed at take off speeds.
A friend of mine has checked historical weather for this airport at that time He said the temp. was 0 degC and the dew point was -1. Does this mean that it would be water rather than ice?
It was likely to be close to or below 0 degC by the way. Heavy snow showers on the way to the airport a few hours earlier and at the time of boarding the skies were clear and it felt very cold on the way to the plane.
Can't be sure though and so it could be condensation although it didn,t get disturbed at take off speeds.
A friend of mine has checked historical weather for this airport at that time He said the temp. was 0 degC and the dew point was -1. Does this mean that it would be water rather than ice?
Last edited by matblack; 19th Feb 2009 at 22:37.
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heavy showers a few hours earlier. was the aircraft parked there a few hour earlier??? was there any active frost present??? again your photo from the 13th of march shows condenation and nothing else. if the flight crew concerned did their walkaround they would have spoted this moisture, checked to see if it was frozen or in the process of freezing, and in doing so carry out the check for any need to de-ice. if they needed deicing they would have done it. every one remembers the BHX accident in 2002 and the air floirda in washington.......flight crew are not idiots and are professionals. you are suggesting that they have as much knowledge of flying as you do........which clearly is none.....you are a buisness development manager adrian. i suggest you stick to it.
how many other airlines do you pull this prank on??? does it get you and upgrade when you fly them again?? are you hoping to get an upgrade with this airline?
If there was clearly ice and snow and a contaminated wing and i was in your shos that night......i would have stood up in the cabin to make sure the aircraft could not take-off.
how many other airlines do you pull this prank on??? does it get you and upgrade when you fly them again?? are you hoping to get an upgrade with this airline?
If there was clearly ice and snow and a contaminated wing and i was in your shos that night......i would have stood up in the cabin to make sure the aircraft could not take-off.
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Thanks for that reply. Very professional indeed. In answer to your questions, yes I will stick to it, no I have never "pulled this prank" in over 10 years, no I wouldn't anticipate or require an upgrade. I merely questioned something I thought wasn't right and with my university days in mech. eng. covering fluid dynamics I have at least a reasonable degree of understanding on the principles of flight.
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now now people. I understand where howflytrg is coming from. in this day and age it is all to easy for joe public to complain about something end get the wrong end of the stick. especially when they are not directly involved in a complex operation,such as operating a commercial aircraft. however he still has a right to question what he feels is wrong, even if it turns out that there was nothing wrong in the first place.
If it was frost, from my experience you would have to be as blind as a bat to miss it on a turnaround inspection, and as people have said a tactile test(touching the stuff) would very quickly and easily solve the "is it frost or condensation" debate that appears to be going on here.
I personally have had many experiences of moisture on the wing that has not been disturbed during the take off role......especially noticeable on summer mornings in europe. Just because the temp was low does'nt mean it was frost. there are too many factors at play eg aircraft skin temp/fueltemp etc. One does need to be careful about making accusations though. its a tougth call and im sure if you did write in it would be investigted professionally and not left to a pprune court to decide.
If it was frost, from my experience you would have to be as blind as a bat to miss it on a turnaround inspection, and as people have said a tactile test(touching the stuff) would very quickly and easily solve the "is it frost or condensation" debate that appears to be going on here.
I personally have had many experiences of moisture on the wing that has not been disturbed during the take off role......especially noticeable on summer mornings in europe. Just because the temp was low does'nt mean it was frost. there are too many factors at play eg aircraft skin temp/fueltemp etc. One does need to be careful about making accusations though. its a tougth call and im sure if you did write in it would be investigted professionally and not left to a pprune court to decide.
Last edited by BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES; 28th Feb 2009 at 21:32.