How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?
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How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?
test program operated by several russian / us companies a few yrs ago with old russian Tu144.
Interesting is that you the different dynamics and control action lead to a very bumpy occassion
.
http://www.aviapedia.com/videos/civi...44_landing.wmv
It seems to me the pilot is trying to put the wheels on the runway when he should have just let it happen, starting a sequence hardly under his control..
Rugged russian airframe luckely
Interesting is that you the different dynamics and control action lead to a very bumpy occassion
.http://www.aviapedia.com/videos/civi...44_landing.wmv
It seems to me the pilot is trying to put the wheels on the runway when he should have just let it happen, starting a sequence hardly under his control..
Rugged russian airframe luckely
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Not at all 'bumpy'! The apparent 'bounce' is not a bounce at all, it is all to do with active elevator use during the flare on a delta winged aeroplane. The 'impact' is probably quite gentle with little 'g' recorded- all the motion is from powered elevator use. I wouldn't like to say what 'he should have done', I wasn't there, but I don't see anything at all 'wrong' with that- it was a perfectly satisfactory arrival. Something for adverse comments by the uneducated to be attached to videos like the million on youtube all claiming to be 'hard', 'bounced', 'dangerous' etc, landings when in fact it was absolutely unusual. Concorde did some of those as well! I do them now and then in a 737. Not a problem, and unnoticed by the passengers!
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adverse comments by the uneducated
There is something unusual about that 'flare', and the resulting action is anything but ordinary. The video isn't spectacularly clear, but it appears that there is significant deviation of the elevators both up and down prior to touchdown.
I am yet to fly an aircraft where the recommended landing technique is described as I have just watched.
As for the G force on impact - I would think you'd have felt that!
In answer to the original question - application of the correct technique would have mitigated the wild pitching in the video. It appears he/she flared too high and attempted to correct with a significant pitching down - maybe too heavy handed with the correction
Last edited by Love_joy; 10th Feb 2009 at 14:26. Reason: To answer the original question
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If you'd been sat above the undercarriage that would have felt bumpy. If you'd been sat at the very back the less physically tolerant of us may have felt a little queasy!
And no, that's not normal landing technique, but in saying that it's not unusual, although it places unnecessary stresses on the airframe. Remember that some components are replaced/maintained (=money) based on the number of landings, well there's three in that vid
. But hey, unless anybody here was on that flightdeck or knows the precise conditions at the time, they should keep their mouths well and truly shut before slagging off any pilot's landing.
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And no, that's not normal landing technique, but in saying that it's not unusual, although it places unnecessary stresses on the airframe. Remember that some components are replaced/maintained (=money) based on the number of landings, well there's three in that vid
. But hey, unless anybody here was on that flightdeck or knows the precise conditions at the time, they should keep their mouths well and truly shut before slagging off any pilot's landing. Ad
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Rainboe
It seems (from the video) pilot tried to "plant" a/c but almost immediately pulled (to "correct" his "mistake"), not allowing the a/c to react in time to first input; it looked like a picture perfect landing until he tried to improve on it. By the way, do you ever (on the 73) arrest sink with thrust at T/D?
(His AoA looks minimal for a Delta, so my f-106 bud tells me)
AF
(His AoA looks minimal for a Delta, so my f-106 bud tells me)
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Yup, it's called pilot induced oscillation 
But we don't know that's what happened... it's a non event either way, but everyone has the right to their opinion and a discussion.
But we don't know that's what happened... it's a non event either way, but everyone has the right to their opinion and a discussion.
Blimey Rainboe, think most people would have noticed those “arrivals”! As LJ and R737 suggest, looks a bit like PIO after trying to correct what could have been a slightly early flare - which actually looked OK if that had been held – runway length permitting! Given it was test-flying, it is probably hardly surprising as the guy flying it at the time probably had little time on it (even if he was a very experienced TP) so these things happen to the best. Reminds me of that A319(?) clip where the thing lands porpoising down the runway from Mains to Nose and back again several times before settling down. Still, seeing that makes me feel a bit better when I get it wrong! 
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That A320 was a hoax video BTW.
I have watched the video in question several times. Nothing more than a 'firm' touchdown- I have seen Concorde touch down harder than that. Several oscillations- as said, probably an inexperienced pilot on type feeling for the ground rather too enthusiastically. But nothing that needs a post mortem, nothing overstressed (without doubt). You want to see a 'positive' landing? The Interflug IL62 landing on grass in East Germany. This- nothing unusual at all. Let's not go making mountains out of molehills, this is a professional pilots forum, not airliners.net or youtube (with it's 10,000 'educated' critical remarks!).
I have watched the video in question several times. Nothing more than a 'firm' touchdown- I have seen Concorde touch down harder than that. Several oscillations- as said, probably an inexperienced pilot on type feeling for the ground rather too enthusiastically. But nothing that needs a post mortem, nothing overstressed (without doubt). You want to see a 'positive' landing? The Interflug IL62 landing on grass in East Germany. This- nothing unusual at all. Let's not go making mountains out of molehills, this is a professional pilots forum, not airliners.net or youtube (with it's 10,000 'educated' critical remarks!).
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just looks like a bit of PIO as he flares in ground effect. bit of a bump, but it was a highly modified plane at that stage (new more powerful engines) with a very unusual configuration (double delta, retractable canards etc) that had not flown for many years and the guy flying had either zero or very few landings in it before that flight, despite being very experienced.
imagine flying a huge unknown delta bird like that for the first time with folks taking pictures. You need balls
imagine flying a huge unknown delta bird like that for the first time with folks taking pictures. You need balls
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Constructive criticism? A boon to the pursuit. Look closely at the elevators before "touch" down. I've done that, with unnecessary roll as well. But not in that type. Flight Test is not in my logbook, except due to my own mistakes, (thankfully minor). Hats off to all in Test programs everywhere.
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Unfortunately there is no commentary with the clip.
My guess would be, that it's probably the first landing by one of the NASA pilots, who would have been an experienced test pilot, but may not have had that much delta time, and most likely none on a delta that big....
Basically by applying the same technique as on Concorde, which can be slightly counter-intuitive.
On Concorde you don't "flare" in the conventional sense, you maintain essentially the same pitch attitude to touch-down, and it's the ground effect of that big delta, that produces the "flare" in the sense of reducing the vertical speed to near zero at touch-down.
When entering ground effect there is a definite pitch-down moment which one has to counter with a definite control input to maintain pitch attitude. That's something one has to learn to 'dose' correctly (preferably in the sim, but I don't know if one was still available). In this case there was clearly some overcorrecting going on....
Sorry Rainboe, this was not SOP neither on the Tu-144 nor on Concorde ...
These were test flights, which included handling evaluation. You wouldn't have learned much from letting the A/P do the job.
Always difficult to judge accurately from a video... also the Tu-144LL had canards, which would have helped to keep the AoA down.
There is a nice NASA report about the handling trials. Don't have a link at hand, but it's NASA/TM-2000-209850, "A Qualitative Piloted Evaluation of the Tupolev Tu-144 Supersonic Transport", authored by people from Langley, Dryden and Boeing.
CJ
My guess would be, that it's probably the first landing by one of the NASA pilots, who would have been an experienced test pilot, but may not have had that much delta time, and most likely none on a delta that big....
Originally Posted by keesje
How could the pilot have prevented this bumpy landing?
On Concorde you don't "flare" in the conventional sense, you maintain essentially the same pitch attitude to touch-down, and it's the ground effect of that big delta, that produces the "flare" in the sense of reducing the vertical speed to near zero at touch-down.
When entering ground effect there is a definite pitch-down moment which one has to counter with a definite control input to maintain pitch attitude. That's something one has to learn to 'dose' correctly (preferably in the sim, but I don't know if one was still available). In this case there was clearly some overcorrecting going on....
Sorry Rainboe, this was not SOP neither on the Tu-144 nor on Concorde ...
Originally Posted by Jet II
Let the autopilot land it?
Originally Posted by airfoilmod
His AoA looks minimal for a Delta, so my F-106 bud tells me
There is a nice NASA report about the handling trials. Don't have a link at hand, but it's NASA/TM-2000-209850, "A Qualitative Piloted Evaluation of the Tupolev Tu-144 Supersonic Transport", authored by people from Langley, Dryden and Boeing.
CJ
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HnH, Everything on the internet is either a hoax, fake, or has attached a litany of totally idiotic remarks (youtube)! In fact this posting is a hoax, fake, and full of idiocy. Don't believe anything you see anymore, especially Police speed camera pictures.
Christiaan, nobody said it was 'SOP'. It was nothing unusual. I've seen Concorde doing something like that. It happens, nothing broken.
Christiaan, nobody said it was 'SOP'. It was nothing unusual. I've seen Concorde doing something like that. It happens, nothing broken.
An interesting insight into a characteristic of landing a Delta Christiaan! In fact, it looks like the first “excursion” was a reduction in pitch which ties in with your info on the “pitch down” Moment generated in GE.
Would the Pitch Moment be due a “cushion” building up mainly towards the rear of the wing which is where the greatest span is? I would suspect that, in a Delta, Lift/CP itself remains fairly unaffected in GE since it will be almost pure Vortex lift at that point but that is only based on some wind tunnel work I did on the Harrier LERX a few years ago. Clearly, that was a hybrid situation I was looking at. All interesting stuff!
As you say Rainboe, who knows what is real these days.
Would the Pitch Moment be due a “cushion” building up mainly towards the rear of the wing which is where the greatest span is? I would suspect that, in a Delta, Lift/CP itself remains fairly unaffected in GE since it will be almost pure Vortex lift at that point but that is only based on some wind tunnel work I did on the Harrier LERX a few years ago. Clearly, that was a hybrid situation I was looking at. All interesting stuff!
As you say Rainboe, who knows what is real these days.
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I have never seen this jet before. Could someone explain to me why it looks exactly like the Concorde and why stealing is the word that pops out in my head?
If I remember correctly I have seen a russian plane that looks exactly like the 757.
If I remember correctly I have seen a russian plane that looks exactly like the 757.
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Waiting for this to be moved to JetBlast...
You got the point... he was probaly briefed on this but didn't know exactly when to expect it.
I would say that covers it pretty well. Let's leave the nitpicking to the others, HnH.
Not Rainboe himself, that's for sure....
Troll, imp, gremliin, Cheshire cat, hoax ... how would you describe yourself these days, Rainboe?
CJ
Originally Posted by Hot 'n' High
An interesting insight into a characteristic of landing a Delta Christiaan! In fact, it looks like the first “excursion” was a reduction in pitch which ties in with your info on the “pitch down” moment generated in GE.
Would the Pitch Moment be due a “cushion” building up mainly towards the rear of the wing which is where the greatest span is? I would suspect that, in a Delta, Lift/CP itself remains fairly unaffected in GE since it will be almost pure Vortex lift at that point but that is only based on some wind tunnel work I did on the Harrier LERX a few years ago. Clearly, that was a hybrid situation I was looking at. All interesting stuff!
As you say Rainboe, who knows what is real these days.
Troll, imp, gremliin, Cheshire cat, hoax ... how would you describe yourself these days, Rainboe?
CJ