A320 slats/flaps jammed

[avionneta]

hi,
who knows why with slats/flaps problems, using QRH 2.04, we don't come back to managed speed when at Vapp calculated with QRH 2.31/32, loosing GS mini

[Admiral346]

I don't know, I am guessing wildly:

Maybe because managed would keep the speed command for the autothrust at the respective greendot, S, F on your speed tape, but actually you are flying a speed below that (Vref + xx, acc. QRH)...

Nic

[SIDSTAR]

Look up your ATHR logic. In Managed speed the ATHR will give a thrust setting for the flap lever position. With Slats/Flaps locked will you get the normal config when you move the lever? Better to be in Selected speed as you now control what speed the ATHR will command - less likelihood of the ATHR giving an inappropriate speed for your actual slats/flaps configuration. The Go Around can be interesting in such situations.

[avionneta]

sorry but the question is : managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function (why not here)
for the GO around, it is quite clear. the selected speed reverts to managed and fly the vapp calculated by you and inserted in the MCDU

still need a suggestion then !

[channel4]

'flaps/slats jammed' GA procedure

can anybody help with avioneta's comment?

I too would like to know:

1. managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function.
Do we remain in SEL, or do we go Managed?

2. Do we do Go around with speed SEL?
G.Around with the same speed as Vapp?
What is exact procedure for Go Around in this case if somebody could help please.??

3. As I understand When flaps/slats are deployed the red barber pole = VFE/VMO. I don't understand what is the difference between VFE and Max Speed (for flaps/slats jammed). Which one does the red barber pole indicate?

4. VFE is shown on PFD according to lever position? Overspeed is according to actual flap/slat position? Where is Overspeed shown on PFD? What is difference between VFE and Overspeed in this case?

Bit of confusion with differences between VFE, Max Speed and Overspeed

Many thanks for your help guys!

C4

[Bearcat]

Come do it for real............an interesting days work!!

[TyroPicard]

avionetta

for the GO around, it is quite clear. the selected speed reverts to managed

Can you provide FCOM reference for this please?

[I-2021]

1. managed speed after all flaps/slats extended. the Vapp selected we use is the one we calculated and entered in MCDU. if we go managed, same target speed but in managed + possibly the GS mini function.
Do we remain in SEL, or do we go Managed?

You can use speed managed.

2. Do we do Go around with speed SEL?
G.Around with the same speed as Vapp?
What is exact procedure for Go Around in this case if somebody could help please.??

When you go around, the SRS will be activated therefore you will be in managed speed. Once you reach your acceleration altitude you have 2 options : either you pull the speed and select the speed that you wish to fly according to the paper checklist or you preselect during the approach preparation a speed constraint in the go around routing so that once you start to accelerate you keep speed managed and the airplane will accelerate to your speed constraint. For the operating procedure, it is very well explained in the checklist.

3. As I understand When flaps/slats are deployed the red barber pole = VFE/VMO. I don't understand what is the difference between VFE and Max Speed (for flaps/slats jammed). Which one does the red barber pole indicate?

The barber pole will start at your VFE. As your VFE is displayed according to your flaps lever position, your barber pole will be displayed according to your flap lever position.

4. VFE is shown on PFD according to lever position? Overspeed is according to actual flap/slat position? Where is Overspeed shown on PFD? What is difference between VFE and Overspeed in this case?

The landing with slats or flaps jammed paper checklist is full of very interesting notes that you must read when applying this procedure as the core of the situation is contained in these small notes. Concerning the other speeds, check in your FCOM 3.04.10 in the supplementary procedures the definitions of the characteristic speeds, all you need to know is there.

Cheers.

[Microburst2002]

If you study the procedure and you have a flaps and/or slats jam one day in approach you may carry out all the procedures and land without having to hold for thouble shooting. If you don't, you have to discontinue approach and hold.

- When you have the ECAM caution, pull speed (so your speed doesn't get too low for the actual flap/slat config). But don't rush in doing this. Keep in mind that VLS remains meaningful all the way.
- Then look at the ECAM and if it is a locked or the recycle doesn't work, ask the PNF to clear the page. (you have a MAX SPEED line but you want to slow down, not to accelerate)
- Then select VFE next -5 kt. If it is not displayed you know it by heart, or you can find it in the placard.
- Then review STS page: you have to select GPWS FLAP mode OFF or FLAP 3, accordingly, and note the delta VREF.
- When speed is VFE nex- 5 kt, select next configuration
- repeat until you have CONF 3, then select VAPP (or manage, if you like, but you need to insert VAPP in the PERF page. I prefer not having any GS mini interfering, specially in short runways. Selected speed is recommended in the FCOM, anyway.
- then calculate VMAX (different than the PFD barber pole in some cases). You can note it or set it (-10 kt) as a SPD CSTR in the GA.
- plan the Go around (diversion or circuit). For circuit, always keep the landing configuration. For diversion, clean up, except for flaps>1 jam, where you also keep config.
- finally, calculate landing distance (normally not limiting in the "typical" runways)

Go around if you don't have acomplished all these before 1000 ft, but don't go around without calculating VMAX.
you can always trust VLS and the aural overspeed warning. VMAX (VFE) can be wrong (slower than real)
Disconnect AP above 500 ft.

in case of go around, do it smoothly and don't change configuration. With no slats or no flaps you can have stall warning if you are too brisk.

[I-2021]

Microburst2002,

If you study the procedure and you have a flaps and/or slats jam one day in approach you may carry out all the procedures and land without having to hold for thouble shooting. If you don't, you have to discontinue approach and hold.

Real life is not a sim scenario. That kind of failure is one where people tend to make a lot of mess in the sim, in real life it can only be worst. Therefore if you are not burning and you have some fuel left I would strongly recommend that you take all the time that you may need to complete the procedures before actually starting the approach. Being head down reading the checklist and all the notes in a way that the PF understands what he has to do, while monitoring the approach and talking to the ATC, and finally discovering that you would be more comfortable with that runway that is just 20 nm away, all of that is not really nice to be seen from an observer point of view.
Just my 2 cents.

[Microburst2002]

You are right

I apply the 1000 rule. If by then you haven't done everything (including GA considerations and landing distance) then go around.

I have practiced it a few times in the sim and I had it in real life long time ago.

Knowing that you can rely on VLS makes it very simple. Just fly VFE next -5 and move the lever until 3, then VAPP, then GPWS, then calculate VMAX-10 for GA accel.

If the failure occurs early (at conf 1 selection) there is plenty of time. If it occurs later, there is less time, but also the problem is milder.

but i agree with you. If there is plenty of fuel, I don't have the drill so '"fresh", it is IMC, etc... there is no reason not to take some time and make sure everything is OK and double checked before shooting the approach.

[Trust me Im Staff]

1. GS speed Mini is not an issue due to the relatively high approach speeds generated by configuration abnormals.

2. Selected Speed will not automatically revert to managed speed on Go Around.

3. Go Around Speeds are published in the QRH for the various abnormal configurations and should be prebriefed for a possible Go Around and flown in Selected mode (dialed up during Go Around).

[I-2021]

Trust me Im Staff,

2. Selected Speed will not automatically revert to managed speed on Go Around.

I trust you but could you please explain me why, assuming the use of FD.

Cheers.

[3holelover]

Bearcat?

"ENG TYPE DISAGREE"? I'd really like to ask how an A/C with that kind of status msg wound up in flt? Or was it a sim?

[Microburst2002]

If GO AROUND mode is activated upon advancing the thrust levers to TOGA (which occurs in most models even in case of a full AP/FD OFF, save those without the retrofit) then speed becomes managed.

If I have problems with an elevator, or ailerons, I would gladly use GS mini and increased speeds. In a no flap no slat scenario, however, I would stick to a selected ECAM VAPP (conf full perf page VLS plus ECAM delta vref). Airbus recommends selected speed (see QRH procedure). Of course, if I see VLS above my target speed (heavier thand loadsheet) I will respect VLS anyway.

Actually the whole thing is very easy. When the lock occurs, set progressively VFE next -5 kt and set next config, then select VLS, then calculate VMAX-10 for the GA, then verify landing distance is not a problem. done.

In a flaps jammed between 2 and 3 I could insert VAPP and manage speed during approach to get benefit from GS mini. Landing distance is not an issue.

[TyroPicard]

MB2002 and avionetta...

If GO AROUND mode is activated upon advancing the thrust levers to TOGA .... then speed becomes managed.

I say again .. where in FCOM does it say this?

[TyroPicard]

Another good reason for using Selected speed is .. on a go-around the a/c will not accelerate automatically at Aa but will remain at the pilot-selected speed.

[I-2021]

I say again .. where in FCOM does it say this?

Check FCOM 1.22.30 P10

Another good reason for using Selected speed is .. on a go-around the a/c will not accelerate automatically at Aa but will remain at the pilot-selected speed.

If you insert a speed constraint in the missed approach routing the aircraft will accelerate to that speed, so you can keep speed managed, i.e you need to fly 175 kt for go around, then insert 175 kt as a speed costraint. If you pull speed during the go around you exit the SRS and you go in OP CLB.

Cheers.

[Bearcat]

"ENG TYPE DISAGREE"? I'd really like to ask how an A/C with that kind of status msg wound up in flt? Or was it a sim?

it was the real deal.....aircraft was just out of maint and was doing a test flight. Needless to say a cold reception ensued post flight with the maintenance guys.

[Microburst2002]

The more i think about it, the simpler it gets.

consider a total flaps and slats fault (flap lever control sensor unit fault, for instance).

You can reduce speed right away to VLS and set the lever to conf 2 and 3 at VFE next -5 kt. This will be symbolic, since nothing happens. In the mean time, PNF can calculate landing distance. VMAX is unlimited, because you are clean.

so in the end it is very straight forward: fly VLS and land the airplane.

In any other case you have better conditions, and you can also fly any speed above VLS. sometimes flap lever movement will be symbolic, sometimes it will not, but in the end it all comes to "fly VLS and land".