Airbus crash/training flight
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: Uk
Magplug
Even if the external connectors are damaged the larger investigation authorities will have the capability to download just the surviving memory module using replacement cables and a 'donor unit'.
If the impact is severe, it's possible that one of the pcb connections on one of the chips in the memory module (could be address decoding or the flash itself) has come adrift and the best place to fix the problem is the manufacturer.
This has nothing to do with perceived impartiality etc. etc., it's just the safest and quickest way to get the module into a downloadable state.
Even if the external connectors are damaged the larger investigation authorities will have the capability to download just the surviving memory module using replacement cables and a 'donor unit'.
If the impact is severe, it's possible that one of the pcb connections on one of the chips in the memory module (could be address decoding or the flash itself) has come adrift and the best place to fix the problem is the manufacturer.
This has nothing to do with perceived impartiality etc. etc., it's just the safest and quickest way to get the module into a downloadable state.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: southwest
302b31
Indeed. According to the press, the BEA investigators said that if they themselves dug into the guts of the memory, they could make the situation worse and lose information. They said that Honeywell is the best equipped to extract data. It makes sense to this non-specialist.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,569
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From: Florida
In reality the representatives from the parties to the investigation all travel to the manufacturer of the Black Box, have a pre-meeting to agree on the course of action (opening the box, plugging in slave modules etc. to bypass any damage and then decoding chip sets etc). Then whoever wants to can stand around watching all this happen (boring as hell) and once completed somebody can display it on a monitor screen. Then more meetings to decide on how to graph or print out the stuff. About one or two technicians doing the real work and the rest watching while drinking coffee. Once the stuff gets printed out on a piece of paper then you typically circle areas of interest and decide how to proceed further.
For all I know they might even have gotten this far already
For all I know they might even have gotten this far already
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 192
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From: Albuquerque USA
recovery from damaged recorders example--N600XL PR-GTD
For an example case in the news recently, there is a discussion of recovery of data from the damaged recorders of PR-GTD on pages 62 to 65 of the English translation of the Brazilian report posted on the NTSB site.
NTSB posting
Caution: this is a large file, slow serving site, likely a several minute download.
As others have suggested in this thread, in this case the means employed were decidedly low-tech in this instance, including the extremely ordinary soldering pencil being used in figure 23.
NTSB posting
Caution: this is a large file, slow serving site, likely a several minute download.
As others have suggested in this thread, in this case the means employed were decidedly low-tech in this instance, including the extremely ordinary soldering pencil being used in figure 23.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Near sheep!
I bet Airbus is relieved the data cant be retrieved
I am pretty sure they want to know exactly what has happenned as much as everybody else.
Whatever caused this crash is not going to affect airbus orders!
God bless the families involved.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: southwest
Gents, let's be clear how these things work. The aircraft manufacturer doesn't wait to be told what happened. Airbus flight safety dept will have a copy of the black box data at the same time as the other involved parties.
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,315
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From: France
Originally Posted by archae86
As others have suggested in this thread, in this case the means employed were decidedly low-tech in this instance, including the extremely ordinary soldering pencil being used in figure 23.
Typical low-power low-voltage thermostat soldering iron... Weller to judge from the colour....
But in the picture it's being used to repair the salvaged flat cable, which is indeed a low-tech job.
Judging by the pics, the memory module itself survived pretty well unscathed.
The real trouble starts when the impact forces are so high that the memory board itself cracks and becomes unuseable, or if any of the bonding inside the memory chip packages breaks.
Then it becomes a decidedly high-tech job!
I've "talked" to undamaged FDRs, but never had to go inside one.
CJ
more info
Joined: Dec 2008
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From: everywhere
"The last rumour I heard was that the aircraft was on its 2nd flight test but it should have only had the one! It had been re-sprayed and was due to fly to Germany post successful flight / acceptance checks etc.(hence the 3 air nz engineers and 1 pilot onboard) I have also heard on the grapevine that the static ports had been blanked off (for re-spray) and may have been missed pre flight. Quite how the aircraft can fly for 90 minutes with these blocked and the problems not have come to light is a mystery? Maybe it upset the landing configuration (height and speed information way out) and the aircraft stalled. Would have thought it would have a RAW data backup from Inertia system?? Who knows?"
Think before writing please.
Think before writing please.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 20
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From: At Home
So for me there is cause for concern, but i hope i am wrong.
Theoddkiwi
Probationary PPRuNer
SAID on page 13 of this thread ....
"So for me there is cause for concern, but i hope i am wrong."
So TRUE.
Probationary PPRuNer
SAID on page 13 of this thread ....
"So for me there is cause for concern, but i hope i am wrong."
So TRUE.
Last edited by iamhere; 15th December 2008 at 10:13. Reason: incomplete text
Pegase Driver
Joined: May 1997
Aviation Qualifications: ATCO
Posts: 4,447
Likes: 1,155
From: Europe
According French local Perpignan TV news (Fr3 ) a few days ago : the CVR/FDR were both sent to Honeywell in Seattle as the BEA were unable to get info from them. The QAR however is repported to be OK and talking . ( a photo was even shown ).
6 bodies retreived so far , none identified yet, they are waiting for DNAs from siblings to make positive ID. Divers still on the site to recover instrumentation and last body.
In addition there are local rumours ( but only rumours ) that someone present during the briefing prior the flight heard the crew talk about the " manual back up" which led to speculations. But it seems very unlikely that experienced 320 crews ( as they were) did this on final APP below 10.000ft . So only wild speculations so far.
Hopefully Honeywell will be able to get something out of the Recorders.
6 bodies retreived so far , none identified yet, they are waiting for DNAs from siblings to make positive ID. Divers still on the site to recover instrumentation and last body.
In addition there are local rumours ( but only rumours ) that someone present during the briefing prior the flight heard the crew talk about the " manual back up" which led to speculations. But it seems very unlikely that experienced 320 crews ( as they were) did this on final APP below 10.000ft . So only wild speculations so far.
Hopefully Honeywell will be able to get something out of the Recorders.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 131
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From: Oxfordshire
Quote "It has been over three weeks and no updates at all....the French are being awfully quiet about this." Quote.
Quite normal during any aircraft investigation.
One of the major failings during accident investigation is speaking up too soon, before you have the facts.
Untill the recorders have been downloaded by Honeywell I doubt anything will be said.
Quite normal during any aircraft investigation.
One of the major failings during accident investigation is speaking up too soon, before you have the facts.
Untill the recorders have been downloaded by Honeywell I doubt anything will be said.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 9
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From: YSNF
Black boxes reveal no clues to Airbus crash
Black boxes reveal no clues to Airbus crash
10:04AM Saturday Dec 27, 2008
The two black boxes from the Airbus that crashed off the French coast a month ago have not provided any information into the cause of the accident.
The Airbus A320 plunged into the sea near Perpignan on November 28, killing all seven on board - five New Zealanders and the two German pilots.
The A320 was in its final assessment before it was handed back to Air New Zealand after it had been leased to the German airline XL Airways.
The Washington Post said this week no useful information had been gleaned from either the cockpit voice recorder or the flight-data recorder.
The lack of progress had frustrated aviation safety experts on both sides of the Atlantic because the twin-engine A320 was considered a workhorse of airlines around the world, and the cause of the crash was keenly awaited, the Press reported.
Six of the bodies have so far been recovered, but none have yet been identified.
A team of divers would continue to search the wreckage for the remaining body this week, helped by an observation robot.
The French prosecutor expected to formally identify the bodies by mid-January.
Air New Zealand spokeswoman Tracy Mills said French authorities had not contacted Air New Zealand with any updates since early this month.
Four of the five New Zealanders on board were Air NZ staff.
They were Captain Brian Horrell, 52, from Auckland; engineers Murray White, 37, from Auckland, Michael Gyles, 49, from Christchurch, and Noel Marsh, 35, from Christchurch.
The fifth New Zealander was Civil Aviation Authority airworthiness inspector Jeremy Cook, 58, of Wellington.
A memorial service for Mr Marsh will be held at the Harewood Crematorium chapel in Christchurch on Monday morning.
- NZPA
Black boxes reveal no clues to Airbus crash - National - NZ Herald News
10:04AM Saturday Dec 27, 2008
The two black boxes from the Airbus that crashed off the French coast a month ago have not provided any information into the cause of the accident.
The Airbus A320 plunged into the sea near Perpignan on November 28, killing all seven on board - five New Zealanders and the two German pilots.
The A320 was in its final assessment before it was handed back to Air New Zealand after it had been leased to the German airline XL Airways.
The Washington Post said this week no useful information had been gleaned from either the cockpit voice recorder or the flight-data recorder.
The lack of progress had frustrated aviation safety experts on both sides of the Atlantic because the twin-engine A320 was considered a workhorse of airlines around the world, and the cause of the crash was keenly awaited, the Press reported.
Six of the bodies have so far been recovered, but none have yet been identified.
A team of divers would continue to search the wreckage for the remaining body this week, helped by an observation robot.
The French prosecutor expected to formally identify the bodies by mid-January.
Air New Zealand spokeswoman Tracy Mills said French authorities had not contacted Air New Zealand with any updates since early this month.
Four of the five New Zealanders on board were Air NZ staff.
They were Captain Brian Horrell, 52, from Auckland; engineers Murray White, 37, from Auckland, Michael Gyles, 49, from Christchurch, and Noel Marsh, 35, from Christchurch.
The fifth New Zealander was Civil Aviation Authority airworthiness inspector Jeremy Cook, 58, of Wellington.
A memorial service for Mr Marsh will be held at the Harewood Crematorium chapel in Christchurch on Monday morning.
- NZPA
Black boxes reveal no clues to Airbus crash - National - NZ Herald News
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 290
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From: Downunder
Some information must be available since this aircraft was capable of sending off real time data.
The Washington Post reports that no useful information has been retrieved from the recorders.
Do you believe that?
The Washington Post reports that no useful information has been retrieved from the recorders.
Do you believe that?
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,693
Likes: 15
From: Wellington,NZ
Whoa, Silver. Hold the horses, guys.
The Wall St Journal article provides slightly more background than the selectively quoted NZ Herald report linked above.
Wall Street Journal Report
Basically, the reason no useful information has been gleaned, is that in all likelihood, it hasn't been downloaded by Honeywell yet.
It would be appreciated if folk keen to post info would take a few seconds to read it and realize that it is non-info before hitting the "submit" button.
And for those that can't wait, or take everything posted here as gospel, take a bit of trouble to quote correctly.
Why quote the NZ Herald when the source is actually slightly different?
"...because the twin-engine A320 was considered a workhorse..."
becomes
"...- because the twin-engine A320 is a workhorse of airlines... when you look to the original article.
(Minor niggly point, maybe, but apparently important.)
Final note, you (or I, anyway) have to be a little circumspect when reading media reports with wording like
If they can't reveal the source, or think it unimportant - and I imagine the Wall St Journal should be fairly reputable - then the source should really be considered as irrelevant.
It's reportage for the sake of it.
Move along, please, nothing to see here....
[edited for source correction]
The Wall St Journal article provides slightly more background than the selectively quoted NZ Herald report linked above.
Wall Street Journal Report
After initial efforts failed to retrieve data from the plane's recorders, French air-crash investigators decided to send them off to Honeywell international Inc., which made the devices. But an ongoing criminal probe of the crash delayed that transfer by a number of weeks, according to people familiar with the details. At this point, Honeywell experts don't expect to receive the recorders until the first week in January. A Honeywell spokeswoman said the company hasn't received the recorders and referred calls to investigators
It would be appreciated if folk keen to post info would take a few seconds to read it and realize that it is non-info before hitting the "submit" button.
And for those that can't wait, or take everything posted here as gospel, take a bit of trouble to quote correctly.
Why quote the NZ Herald when the source is actually slightly different?
"...because the twin-engine A320 was considered a workhorse..."
becomes
"...- because the twin-engine A320 is a workhorse of airlines... when you look to the original article.
(Minor niggly point, maybe, but apparently important.)
Final note, you (or I, anyway) have to be a little circumspect when reading media reports with wording like
according to people familiar with the details.
It's reportage for the sake of it.
Move along, please, nothing to see here....
[edited for source correction]
Joined: Sep 2008
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 3,426
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From: 41S174E
Is there any info on the net about the progress?
I had no idea that a criminal investigation was holding up the processing of the FDR and am a little disturbed by the news. I would have thought that extracting the data in gthe name of safety would be the highest priority. What organization has the rite/power etc to do this?
I had no idea that a criminal investigation was holding up the processing of the FDR and am a little disturbed by the news. I would have thought that extracting the data in gthe name of safety would be the highest priority. What organization has the rite/power etc to do this?