CAT III minima
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CAT III minima
Morning all,
Im getting myself confused with CAT III minima. In my ATPL books i have found numerous references to the legal minima but they differ.
CAT IIIa - DH less than 100' or no DH (in Ace the tech. pilot int it says 50') and 200m
CAT IIIb - DH less than 50' or no DH and less than 200m but more than 75m
CAT IIIc - (never used commercially) No DH and No RVR
Now forgive me for being silly but arnt the IIIa/b a little similar. as you could be operating IIIb with a DH of 75' but you could also be operating IIIa
is it the RVR that is the deciding factor.
Many thanks
Nick
Im getting myself confused with CAT III minima. In my ATPL books i have found numerous references to the legal minima but they differ.
CAT IIIa - DH less than 100' or no DH (in Ace the tech. pilot int it says 50') and 200m
CAT IIIb - DH less than 50' or no DH and less than 200m but more than 75m
CAT IIIc - (never used commercially) No DH and No RVR
Now forgive me for being silly but arnt the IIIa/b a little similar. as you could be operating IIIb with a DH of 75' but you could also be operating IIIa
is it the RVR that is the deciding factor.
Many thanks
Nick
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Alert Height
While there is NO DH for Cat.III operations you see "Alert Height" sometimes mentioned.
It is not published in CAT.III minimums, It is a "company procedure".
xxx
Right or wrong, I generally say Cat.IIIa has a AH of (about) 50 ft above TDZ.
And for Cat.IIIb, a AH is (about) 35 ft above TDZ.
That is for a 747-200... Some were Cat.IIIa. None were certificated Cat.IIIb.
We discontinued Cat.IIIa... Company only does Cat.II minimums.
xxx
Happy contrails
It is not published in CAT.III minimums, It is a "company procedure".
xxx
Right or wrong, I generally say Cat.IIIa has a AH of (about) 50 ft above TDZ.
And for Cat.IIIb, a AH is (about) 35 ft above TDZ.
That is for a 747-200... Some were Cat.IIIa. None were certificated Cat.IIIb.
We discontinued Cat.IIIa... Company only does Cat.II minimums.
xxx
Happy contrails
Bel,
Errr.... No.
CatIIIa most definatley DOES have a DH of not less than 50feet.
Alert height is not a "Company procedure", it is a certification requirement for catIII operation. It is the height below which a fail operational system will continue to a landing if one system fails.
On the 777 it's 200 feet. below this all but a few alerts are inhibited as the aircraft is certified to land after the failure of most single systems.
Errr.... No.
CatIIIa most definatley DOES have a DH of not less than 50feet.
Alert height is not a "Company procedure", it is a certification requirement for catIII operation. It is the height below which a fail operational system will continue to a landing if one system fails.
On the 777 it's 200 feet. below this all but a few alerts are inhibited as the aircraft is certified to land after the failure of most single systems.
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We discontinued Cat.IIIa operations in 2002.
xxx
It required Autopilots A, B and C operating and Autoland.
"Decision" to land or missed approach was made at "Alert Height" 50 ft.
All I recall, is that we needed 200 (or 250?) meters RVR, there was no DH.
The planes were equipped with LRCU as required for Cat.IIIb., but no 747 Classic was ever Cat.IIIb.
xxx
And for Cat.II requires 2 autopilots to operate, for 100' DH.
If only 1 autopilot operating, our Cat.II increased and becomes 150' DH.
Happy contrails
xxx
It required Autopilots A, B and C operating and Autoland.
"Decision" to land or missed approach was made at "Alert Height" 50 ft.
All I recall, is that we needed 200 (or 250?) meters RVR, there was no DH.
The planes were equipped with LRCU as required for Cat.IIIb., but no 747 Classic was ever Cat.IIIb.
xxx
And for Cat.II requires 2 autopilots to operate, for 100' DH.
If only 1 autopilot operating, our Cat.II increased and becomes 150' DH.
Happy contrails
Historically there have been differences between CS and FAR, but recent efforts have been made to harmonise these regulations (AC 29).
Minima for low visibility operations are (have been) a combination of the aircraft equipment fit and certification, the operational requirements including visibility, and the standard of ground aids / lighting.
The altitude element can be related to the installed equipment and aircraft performance, from which the visibility follows and usually has to consider cockpit cut off angle.
JAR-OPS 1 attempted to rationalise many different European operational interpretations, including those based on the valuable ECAC doc 17 and the UK CAA fog model. The resultant regulations, IMHO, are a collection of the lowest standards which everyone can now subscribe to without much consideration of some of the hazards, e.g. auto Cat2, DH 100, is allowed to continue to 80ft in reduced visibility, but the new regulation fails to address what action to take if the autos fail between 100ft and 80ft – the visibility now being less than that previously agreed for manual landing.
Alternative, successful fuzziness in the regulations is seen in the European Super Fail Passive operation – Cat IIIa 50ft DH, in 150m RVR.
Then there are debates about ‘see to land’ (auto / manual), and ‘see to verify’ (auto Cat IIIb AH).
Minima for low visibility operations are (have been) a combination of the aircraft equipment fit and certification, the operational requirements including visibility, and the standard of ground aids / lighting.
The altitude element can be related to the installed equipment and aircraft performance, from which the visibility follows and usually has to consider cockpit cut off angle.
JAR-OPS 1 attempted to rationalise many different European operational interpretations, including those based on the valuable ECAC doc 17 and the UK CAA fog model. The resultant regulations, IMHO, are a collection of the lowest standards which everyone can now subscribe to without much consideration of some of the hazards, e.g. auto Cat2, DH 100, is allowed to continue to 80ft in reduced visibility, but the new regulation fails to address what action to take if the autos fail between 100ft and 80ft – the visibility now being less than that previously agreed for manual landing.
Alternative, successful fuzziness in the regulations is seen in the European Super Fail Passive operation – Cat IIIa 50ft DH, in 150m RVR.
Then there are debates about ‘see to land’ (auto / manual), and ‘see to verify’ (auto Cat IIIb AH).
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AH
Alert Height definition:
An Alert Height is a height above the runway, based on the characteristics of the aeroplane and its fail-operational automatic landing system, above which a category III approach would be discontinued and a missed approach initiated if a failure occured in one of the redundant parts of the automatic landing system, or in the relevant ground equipment (ICAO).
FAB
An Alert Height is a height above the runway, based on the characteristics of the aeroplane and its fail-operational automatic landing system, above which a category III approach would be discontinued and a missed approach initiated if a failure occured in one of the redundant parts of the automatic landing system, or in the relevant ground equipment (ICAO).
FAB
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cat III
the only reason why they dont say straight-forwardly that catIIIb is minimum 50' is because it is a jeppessen classification. so you can have an airport fixing its cat IIIb minimum at 40' and it qualifies. however the minima, i feel are the deciding factor because catIIIa is either 100' or no DH at all and the others follow suit.
NO,
CatIIIB less than 50' or no DH
CatIIIA less than 100', not less than 50'
Cat II less than Cat I, not less than 100
Regulaotory, ICAO catagories, nothing to do with Jepps.
CatIIIB less than 50' or no DH
CatIIIA less than 100', not less than 50'
Cat II less than Cat I, not less than 100
Regulaotory, ICAO catagories, nothing to do with Jepps.
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please answer me what is the definition of alert height is trying to safegurd. i am trying to figure out the link. what the regulator had in mind when creating the definition. please answer me cause am desperate to know
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What I know:
Alert height is a result of probability calculations for Fail Operational Approach and Autoland systems.
Simply a mathematical result so that with the redundancy of systems of a particular type of airplane, during the period of time from the time of crossing this height to completing the approach and landing, the subsequent failures of required systems are exteemly remote probability (below a threshold probability value).
That is all.
Below this altitude techinically nothing changes in the plane, however some extra warning systems are armed (or should be already armed -for example AUTOLAND light on AIRBUS-) to alert the pilot for the odd cases which this extreemly remote probability is breached
Alert height is a result of probability calculations for Fail Operational Approach and Autoland systems.
Simply a mathematical result so that with the redundancy of systems of a particular type of airplane, during the period of time from the time of crossing this height to completing the approach and landing, the subsequent failures of required systems are exteemly remote probability (below a threshold probability value).
That is all.
Below this altitude techinically nothing changes in the plane, however some extra warning systems are armed (or should be already armed -for example AUTOLAND light on AIRBUS-) to alert the pilot for the odd cases which this extreemly remote probability is breached
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thank you much sir,
some other peropheral q's:
Alert height only applies when fail operational mode is announced on fma despite you are on cat 3 a approach?
Alert height for a320 is 100ra. is this the lowest possible AH or it could be lowered down to cat 3a minima of not less than 50ft?
Thank you very much for your help
some other peropheral q's:
Alert height only applies when fail operational mode is announced on fma despite you are on cat 3 a approach?
Alert height for a320 is 100ra. is this the lowest possible AH or it could be lowered down to cat 3a minima of not less than 50ft?
Thank you very much for your help
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Hi Bochos,
Answer: Yes, regardless what minima you are flying to (even CAT 3A) if your system is capable to be Fail Operational (for Airbus when CAT 3 DUAL displays on FMA), in fact Alert Height is applicable. For CAT 3A minimum required system is Fail Passive system. However if your airplane is capable to fly Fail Operational, of course it is preferable to fly the same approach with Fail Operational system (that is why we are always engaging 2 A/P for even CAT 3A Approach in Airbus). As doing this, we are using the extra benefit coming with Fail Operational system (like Alert height)
For A 320, 100 RA is the maximum available AH, not the minimum. 100 RA is the approved altitude where above this altitude the required probability can not be achieved.
The following is an extract from Getting The Grips with CAT 2-3 (airbus)
The AH is only linked to the probability of failure(s) of the automatic landing system. Operators are free to select an AH lower than the AH indicated in the AFM but not a higher value. Airbus procedures include both AH and DH concepts for all Fail-operational (see later) Category III operations.
Consider like this, as a pilot I would like to sit in the flight deck of an airplane type so that the approved AH is as high as maximum. Because this means, I am sitting in the flight deck of a more reliable airplane. Further explanation: As the AH is higher, the duration passing from AH to completing App and landing is longer, consequently the airplane systems are so reliable, even at this longer period, the failure probability is still below threshold value.
Practically flying CAT 3A (lets say to DH 50 RA) with Fail Ops system and your AH is 100 RA, below 100 RA continue to land unless the designed warning system is triggered (e.g AUTOLAND light for A 320) and provided visual requirements is achieved by the time of reaching 50RA.
Alert height only applies when fail operational mode is announced on fma despite you are on cat 3 a approach?
Alert height for A320 is 100 RA is this the lowest possible AH or it could be lowered down to cat 3a minima of not less than 50ft?
The following is an extract from Getting The Grips with CAT 2-3 (airbus)
The AH is only linked to the probability of failure(s) of the automatic landing system. Operators are free to select an AH lower than the AH indicated in the AFM but not a higher value. Airbus procedures include both AH and DH concepts for all Fail-operational (see later) Category III operations.
Consider like this, as a pilot I would like to sit in the flight deck of an airplane type so that the approved AH is as high as maximum. Because this means, I am sitting in the flight deck of a more reliable airplane. Further explanation: As the AH is higher, the duration passing from AH to completing App and landing is longer, consequently the airplane systems are so reliable, even at this longer period, the failure probability is still below threshold value.
Practically flying CAT 3A (lets say to DH 50 RA) with Fail Ops system and your AH is 100 RA, below 100 RA continue to land unless the designed warning system is triggered (e.g AUTOLAND light for A 320) and provided visual requirements is achieved by the time of reaching 50RA.
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It is interesting how the Atlantic Ocean divides opinions here is the definition taken from FAA CFRs
Category IIIA operations, an ILS approach and landing with no decision height (DH), or a DH below 100 feet (30 meters), and controlling runway visual range not less than 700 feet (200 meters).
Category IIIB operations, an ILS approach and landing with no DH, or with a DH below 50 feet (15 meters), and controlling runway visual range less than 700 feet (200 meters), but not less than 150 feet (50 meters)
EU Ops states
Category III operations are subdivided as follows:
(i) Category IIIA operations. A precision instrument approach and landing using ILS or MLS with:
(A) A decision height lower than 100 ft; and
(B) A runway visual range not less than 200 m.
(ii) Category IIIB operations. A precision instrument approach and landing using ILS or MLS with:
(A) A decision height lower than 50 ft, or no decision height; and
(B) A runway visual range lower than 200 m but not less than 75 m.
Don't you love semantics
looks like BelArgUSA was right. Another interesting fact that highlights differences in approach to aviation safety is the slow response time for EASA to implement the extension of ETOPS to 3 and 4 engine aircraft which the FAA did last year
Category IIIA operations, an ILS approach and landing with no decision height (DH), or a DH below 100 feet (30 meters), and controlling runway visual range not less than 700 feet (200 meters).
Category IIIB operations, an ILS approach and landing with no DH, or with a DH below 50 feet (15 meters), and controlling runway visual range less than 700 feet (200 meters), but not less than 150 feet (50 meters)
EU Ops states
Category III operations are subdivided as follows:
(i) Category IIIA operations. A precision instrument approach and landing using ILS or MLS with:
(A) A decision height lower than 100 ft; and
(B) A runway visual range not less than 200 m.
(ii) Category IIIB operations. A precision instrument approach and landing using ILS or MLS with:
(A) A decision height lower than 50 ft, or no decision height; and
(B) A runway visual range lower than 200 m but not less than 75 m.
Don't you love semantics
looks like BelArgUSA was right. Another interesting fact that highlights differences in approach to aviation safety is the slow response time for EASA to implement the extension of ETOPS to 3 and 4 engine aircraft which the FAA did last year
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Dear jabbara, saludos...
Many thanks... your words are falling in place in my head with accuracy lighting the dark spots and making things clear in logical manner. They sound more than some of cpts knooww...
Anyways...
AH is applicable whenever Fail Operational is announced regardless of approach. MFGS is frozen at AH thus the Fail operational mode is safegurded by the A/c s ability to cope with any single faileyre.
When is it "armed"? Is it "armed" when dual is announced on fma or at 100ra? What happens if you have fail passive, is fmgs still frozing passing 100ra or is not? from what i understand , sigle operational is not safegurded from AH thus it should not be armed....
As 100ra is the max AH and not the minimum (i now completly understand why) then, why should opperators change it to any lower value? what extra safety could be acheived with fail operational mode? below the nominal AH fmgs is frozen, duall is safegurded, a/c is able to cope with faileure, what else is for operator to lower AH value? Am i missing nything?
I am reading the A320 GTGRIPS manual and thats why all these questions were generated.... am just half way ... am sure more will be to discuss as i read through ... thank you very very much ...
stick around dont desapear now.... : )
bochos
Many thanks... your words are falling in place in my head with accuracy lighting the dark spots and making things clear in logical manner. They sound more than some of cpts knooww...
Anyways...
AH is applicable whenever Fail Operational is announced regardless of approach. MFGS is frozen at AH thus the Fail operational mode is safegurded by the A/c s ability to cope with any single faileyre.
When is it "armed"? Is it "armed" when dual is announced on fma or at 100ra? What happens if you have fail passive, is fmgs still frozing passing 100ra or is not? from what i understand , sigle operational is not safegurded from AH thus it should not be armed....
As 100ra is the max AH and not the minimum (i now completly understand why) then, why should opperators change it to any lower value? what extra safety could be acheived with fail operational mode? below the nominal AH fmgs is frozen, duall is safegurded, a/c is able to cope with faileure, what else is for operator to lower AH value? Am i missing nything?
I am reading the A320 GTGRIPS manual and thats why all these questions were generated.... am just half way ... am sure more will be to discuss as i read through ... thank you very very much ...
stick around dont desapear now.... : )
bochos