How do your airlines train a new copilot who has just got his CPL??
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How do your airlines(wide body only) train a new copilot who has just got his CPL??
My airline new policy to train new copilot (A300-600) on revenue flight with only one flight instructor and the trainee.The new pilot got his CPL then took about half a year in the simulator then passed transition course for A300-600. After finishing school flight (aircraft), the CAA issued A300-600 type rating, then the new pilot will go on flight training with only one instructor pilot. I feel that in the flightdeck there should be another real copilot, just in case of anything happens to the instructor pilot. How you people train the new pilot that just got his CPL to become a copilot on the widebody aircraft? Thanks.
Last edited by Bungfai; 23rd Sep 2008 at 05:50.
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Got the CPL/IR then was lucky enough to start very shortly afterwards on a medium twinjet. Process was the type rating and some company indoc courses. Once passed the final check in the sim, the CAA applied the rating to my licence. Then followed line training - 40 sectors on passenger-carrying flights. The first 6 sectors had a safety pilot in the jumpseat. The next 34 were just me and the training captain. Line check after the 40 sectors and now flying with regular line captains.
Think this is the standard way of doing things, at least here in the UK.
Think this is the standard way of doing things, at least here in the UK.
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Thanks a lot you guy, here we do it from flight school to even intercon flight on 777 (but with three pilots). Some of them took up to 140 sectors and still go on training. Normally less than 80 sectors. Just wonder if something happens to the training captain during flight. Likes toilet visit,the only pilot in the cockpit got only less than 100 hours on type(on wide body as well) that monitor the huge machine!! I feel weird.
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Way I did it was as follows,
First Job after Cpl/Ir, Flying A320 round Europe Major Apts.
-Company Sponsored MCC & A320 TR
-Couple of Obs Flights
-First 30 sectors Training Cpt & Safety Pilot Followed By Route Check
-120 sectors with training Cpt Only then final route check, to fly with normal line Cpts.
All Sectors are Rev Flights
About 28 Sectors a month appx 72 hours
Training is great; Already flew into most Major EU apts a couple of times. Looking forward to the Charter ones now
First Job after Cpl/Ir, Flying A320 round Europe Major Apts.
-Company Sponsored MCC & A320 TR
-Couple of Obs Flights
-First 30 sectors Training Cpt & Safety Pilot Followed By Route Check
-120 sectors with training Cpt Only then final route check, to fly with normal line Cpts.
All Sectors are Rev Flights
About 28 Sectors a month appx 72 hours
Training is great; Already flew into most Major EU apts a couple of times. Looking forward to the Charter ones now
Only half a speed-brake
If it is the first type rating for the F/O, then (minimum) 20 sectors with fully trained pilot on the jump seat as back up and then (minimum) 40 sectors line training with an LFI before line check.
FD (the un-real)
FD (the un-real)
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In Singapore Airlines we have an "Advanced Training" programme for "fresh" CPLs (ex Baron) on the Learjet 45. It's high intensity work for the trainees, but excellent exposure to jet operations. Small the Learjet 45 may be, but so far as is practical, all operational procedures are in line with their next aircraft, the B777.
It's an expensive, non revenue operation, but has wads of savings at the B777 stage, where the training resources (staff and time) are reduced enormously, justifying the programme.
(Unusual airline SIA, operating aircraft from the Learjet 45 through to the A380).
Regards,
Old Smokey
It's an expensive, non revenue operation, but has wads of savings at the B777 stage, where the training resources (staff and time) are reduced enormously, justifying the programme.
(Unusual airline SIA, operating aircraft from the Learjet 45 through to the A380).
Regards,
Old Smokey
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From CPL, we use simulator to train pilot to wide body. Then straight toward revenue flight (wide body A300-600 and B777) Only with the training Capt without any safety pilot. This way the company save a lot of money. But in view of safety,might be a little risky in case of any things happen to the captain.
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A new F/o right out of sim goes to fly with a TRE/TRI WITH a 
safety pilot till he/she is good enough to continue training for another 50hrs or so with LTC without safety pilot. Then a release check with TRE/TRI and finally online!!
safety pilot till he/she is good enough to continue training for another 50hrs or so with LTC without safety pilot. Then a release check with TRE/TRI and finally online!!
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Hi Smokey,
Interesting system. I've heard that SIA has a very interesting, graduated system of training new cadets.
First they do the type rating in the sim - 16 sessions
Then 2 sessions of Base Training on the aircraft
Then they are allowed to operate on the line witha safety pilot but can only handle the aircraft above 10000 ft
After some time at this stage they came back to the sim for another 5 or 6 sessions of non-normals after which they can fly the aircraft above 5000 ft
After some time at that stage they do some more Base training on the aircraft and a sim check and can then operate the aircraft from takeoff to landing.
Can you confirm that the training is something like this? It seems a very carefully planned way of introducing the trainee to normal line ops little by little.
By the way, thanks for all the useful information especially on performance issues.
Interesting system. I've heard that SIA has a very interesting, graduated system of training new cadets.
First they do the type rating in the sim - 16 sessions
Then 2 sessions of Base Training on the aircraft
Then they are allowed to operate on the line witha safety pilot but can only handle the aircraft above 10000 ft
After some time at this stage they came back to the sim for another 5 or 6 sessions of non-normals after which they can fly the aircraft above 5000 ft
After some time at that stage they do some more Base training on the aircraft and a sim check and can then operate the aircraft from takeoff to landing.
Can you confirm that the training is something like this? It seems a very carefully planned way of introducing the trainee to normal line ops little by little.
By the way, thanks for all the useful information especially on performance issues.
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New copilot...?
How do airlines train a new copilot who just got his CPL...?
Very carefully...!
xxx
(wide body only) - You still are among the people believing "bigger is harder"...?
Well, wide body are generally easier and certainly more stable airplanes.
The "size" has little to do.
Just need to learn to taxi with the mind of 18 wheel semi-truck driver.
Don't keep nose wheel on yellow centerline of a narrow taxiway 90º turn...!
For me, the 747 was the easiest plane to learn to fly...
Let him try a V1 engine cut in a Learjet 24 (in the plane, not simulator).
xxx
Low time co-pilots...?
Well, I have seen some 500 hrs (?) CPL in the RHS of Cargolux 747-200s.
Happy contrails
Very carefully...!
xxx
(wide body only) - You still are among the people believing "bigger is harder"...?
Well, wide body are generally easier and certainly more stable airplanes.
The "size" has little to do.
Just need to learn to taxi with the mind of 18 wheel semi-truck driver.
Don't keep nose wheel on yellow centerline of a narrow taxiway 90º turn...!
For me, the 747 was the easiest plane to learn to fly...
Let him try a V1 engine cut in a Learjet 24 (in the plane, not simulator).
xxx
Low time co-pilots...?
Well, I have seen some 500 hrs (?) CPL in the RHS of Cargolux 747-200s.
Happy contrails
Metrosexual
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It's high intensity work for the trainees
But, it is a better idea than sticking them in the RHS for some poor c & t captain to train incessantly - or the unknowing pax in the back who expect experienced two crew on the flight deck - and get a recent graduate of the 'magenta kindergarten'.
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Belargusa
Quote(wide body only) - You still are among the people believing "bigger is harder"...?
Well, wide body are generally easier and certainly more stable airplanes.
The "size" has little to do.
Unquote
It is not the wide body part that is difficult I agree. However most of the time widebody also means longhaul and thus very few sectors per month. It is this that can be difficult for the unexperienced right out of school pilot.
Some people cope, others don't. I have seen them.
Quote(wide body only) - You still are among the people believing "bigger is harder"...?
Well, wide body are generally easier and certainly more stable airplanes.
The "size" has little to do.
Unquote
It is not the wide body part that is difficult I agree. However most of the time widebody also means longhaul and thus very few sectors per month. It is this that can be difficult for the unexperienced right out of school pilot.
Some people cope, others don't. I have seen them.
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Would it be better if he went straight on to a narrow body?
If an airline only flies wide bodies, and needs drivers then why not?
As already mentioned, they are much more stable to fly and the (generally) longer sectors allow for a much less stressed training environment!
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What you describe SIDSTAR is very close to the mark, the system works well. The 16 simulator details is progressively being increased to a much higher figure. The millions spent on an additional simulator, again, whilst expensive, saves many more dollars at other stages (before and after the Learjet phase) of their training.
In fact, yours truly has the honour tonight of operating a B777 with a "10 to 10" trainee, fully qualified F/O up to and below 10,000 feet, with an early stage trainee above 10,000.
At the Learjet stage, it's all Zero to Zero, with a fellow Cadet in the safety seat.
Best Regards,
Old Smokey
In fact, yours truly has the honour tonight of operating a B777 with a "10 to 10" trainee, fully qualified F/O up to and below 10,000 feet, with an early stage trainee above 10,000.
At the Learjet stage, it's all Zero to Zero, with a fellow Cadet in the safety seat.
Best Regards,
Old Smokey
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My company has a LOT of new ab initio pilots on the right seat these days. Had a good laugh yesterday as on of them had his first sector and couldn't find a way how to close the cabin door...Eventually the pilots called maintenance to close the door (the captain was thinking about a technical problem with the door and not a human error of the fresh F/O in this case).
Anyway, even all rampworkers did look at it with disbelief, we are glad our company give this opportunity to these young guys. I just guess they need more "how to close the dam'n door" sim training.
Anyway, even all rampworkers did look at it with disbelief, we are glad our company give this opportunity to these young guys. I just guess they need more "how to close the dam'n door" sim training.
