fuel truck guys cheating - any ideas?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I doubt the fuel from the manifold would bet sucked back into the bowser. Once it leaves the bowser it should be assumed to be contaminated and a one way valve fitted to ensure there's no risk of back flow which could contaminate the enitre contents.
I agree that the what you loose in the manifold, you get back by receiving what the last guy lost. That is unless the company is on the fiddle and kijangnim is right. Sounds like a potentially dangerous practice if it is.
I agree that the what you loose in the manifold, you get back by receiving what the last guy lost. That is unless the company is on the fiddle and kijangnim is right. Sounds like a potentially dangerous practice if it is.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About 20 years ago we used to have a similar problem in Malta where we found that half way through the refuelling the refueller pulled a lever for a couple of minutes. When asked what it did there was no answer, but we suspected (but never proved) that it pumped fuel into the trailer it was towing. The only answer we found was to carefully monitor the bowser operator for the whole refuel time.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,094
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glue Ball
Maybe you have never worked for a UK charter airline? I was with Air Europe at the time and the PNF for the return sector did the walk round and supervised the fuel when away from base. Engineering support was there from the local carrier if needed.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Macclesfield
Age: 53
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cheats!!!
Morning All,
As usual blame the fuellers.......
The S.G is most commonly the problem, we will always give a pilot or engineer the S.G if asked ( which is rare!) but even when we do and the sums don't quite look right, they normally walk off muttering I'll change it for a better one.
If you calculate your uplift in litres to compare whats been delivered, why not give Us fuellers the fuel figure in litres then, then there would be no discrepancy, but no we have to work with pilots who give us figures like,
" Can I have a GOOD 14T"
what sort of figure is that !!!!!!
or
" A generous 25 Thanks"
so we are left to decide what you think these figures are, not very good is it?
On the litres thing AF and KM both used to give their fuel figures in Litres when flying 737's, and on the odd time the S.G would mean even their maths was wrong.
And lastly our meters are calibrated twice a year to prevent this kind of problem.
Fuel Boy
As usual blame the fuellers.......
The S.G is most commonly the problem, we will always give a pilot or engineer the S.G if asked ( which is rare!) but even when we do and the sums don't quite look right, they normally walk off muttering I'll change it for a better one.
If you calculate your uplift in litres to compare whats been delivered, why not give Us fuellers the fuel figure in litres then, then there would be no discrepancy, but no we have to work with pilots who give us figures like,
" Can I have a GOOD 14T"
what sort of figure is that !!!!!!or
" A generous 25 Thanks"
so we are left to decide what you think these figures are, not very good is it?
On the litres thing AF and KM both used to give their fuel figures in Litres when flying 737's, and on the odd time the S.G would mean even their maths was wrong.
And lastly our meters are calibrated twice a year to prevent this kind of problem.
Fuel Boy
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All it needs is a way to siphon off a small volume as the main load of fuel is transferred, and a hidden tank in which to store it so it can be taken for subsequent "re-sale".
Someday one of our engineers found out and informed all station personell involved around our aircraft. Since then, this special fueler and truck is not allowed to refuel our aircraft.
Thinking about notifiying the officials about this? Probably a good idea, but sometimes things work differently in those parts of the world. I think our company officials even did that - to no avail. In all likelyhood it's a bigger scam going on around there, so just prohibiting that guy and truck to refuel the aircraft is the easier way...
So, watch out in ALA.
Last edited by DBate; 20th Sep 2008 at 10:48. Reason: Clumsy fingers
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scottish FIR
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crikey! Looks like more money can be saved by monitoring the fuel loading, than by company fuel policy
Fuel Boy
" Can I have a GOOD 14T" I would take that to mean as close to 14t as you can get without being under.
I take your point though.
Fuel Boy
" Can I have a GOOD 14T" I would take that to mean as close to 14t as you can get without being under.
I take your point though.
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Magic Kingdom
Posts: 655
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At one particular destination of our airline we always have a fuel difference of over 100kg between the amount re-fueled counted by the fuel truck (in liters) and the amount calculated by subtracting fuel remaining before refueling from ramp fuel after refueling.
This problem always happens at the same airport, on all aircraft. Compared to other airports, such a calculation gives an average difference of 30 kilograms.
This problem always happens at the same airport, on all aircraft. Compared to other airports, such a calculation gives an average difference of 30 kilograms.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Egcc
Posts: 1,695
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you calculate your uplift in litres to compare whats been delivered, why not give Us fuellers the fuel figure in litres then, then there would be no discrepancy
PP
To give a link to the incident at Exeter referred to earlier :
"Meter indications on the refuelling vehicle at Santander, which cannot have reflected the quantity of fuel delivered, are also considered to have been a probable contributory factor."
ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 708 Viscount G-ARBY Ottery St. Mary
"Meter indications on the refuelling vehicle at Santander, which cannot have reflected the quantity of fuel delivered, are also considered to have been a probable contributory factor."
ASN Aircraft accident Vickers 708 Viscount G-ARBY Ottery St. Mary
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Seattle
Posts: 3,196
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gentleman be aware when refueling in ALA. There is one fueler usually driving the same modified fueltruck. Part of the fuel is siphoned back into the truck. This regularly leads to a difference of around 500kg during each refueling.
Someday one of our engineers found out and informed all station personell involved around our aircraft. Since then, this special fueler and truck is not allowed to refuel our aircraft.
Someday one of our engineers found out and informed all station personell involved around our aircraft. Since then, this special fueler and truck is not allowed to refuel our aircraft.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Gone Flying...
Age: 63
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
refueling
First of all, it all depends on the type of aircraft they're refueling. (300kg of fuel on a large aircraft is not as important as on a smaller one). In my case A340/330.
In my company, we write the amount of fuel needed in Lts in the technical log book, that has to be signed by the commander (having in mind the fuel density provided by the refueling company) and that amount added to the fuel over destination has to be consistent with the one required on your OFP.
Further, when you add, lets say, 40 Tons (at a mean temp of 24ºC) to 15Tons of Fuel remaining in the tanks, that is at a temperature of -36ºC, (after 8 or 9 hours of flight), you will get a lower weight than expected, but the required amount in liters will be as predicted. Since most aircrafts give you a "weight figure", that has a fixed .800 "cadensicon" fuel weight determination, you may then find a different figure on your FQI. That summed to, at least, a 1% (depending on aircraft) FQI margin will probably give that amount of misreading.
Anyway I must tell you that, using the fuel density liter/Kgs determination procedure we have found that some of our refueling companies in Africa were cheating us...
Regards,
VF
In my company, we write the amount of fuel needed in Lts in the technical log book, that has to be signed by the commander (having in mind the fuel density provided by the refueling company) and that amount added to the fuel over destination has to be consistent with the one required on your OFP.
Further, when you add, lets say, 40 Tons (at a mean temp of 24ºC) to 15Tons of Fuel remaining in the tanks, that is at a temperature of -36ºC, (after 8 or 9 hours of flight), you will get a lower weight than expected, but the required amount in liters will be as predicted. Since most aircrafts give you a "weight figure", that has a fixed .800 "cadensicon" fuel weight determination, you may then find a different figure on your FQI. That summed to, at least, a 1% (depending on aircraft) FQI margin will probably give that amount of misreading.
Anyway I must tell you that, using the fuel density liter/Kgs determination procedure we have found that some of our refueling companies in Africa were cheating us...
Regards,
VF
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 59
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Old hands will remember the loss of an Alidair Viscount approaching Exeter many years ago, fortunately without injury, due to running out of fuel, where (though it was never conclusively proven) their gauges on board were u/s and they were substantially short-shiped for fuel at the start point; for the quantity signed for they could never have run out like this.
Just read the accident report must have been a different one.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: The Middle East
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Please can someone explain why fuel is still dispensed in units of volume whereas aircraft fuel guages display the mass of the fuel. The volume of fuel is completely irrelevant because the amount of internal energy it contains depends on the mass of the fuel and not the volume. Most modern aircraft have an instrument that measure the mass flow rate of fuel to the engines so why can't modern fuel bowsers also measure the mass flow rate being delivered to the aircraft? This would negate the problem of temperature errors/variable specific gravities.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Intruder
Any way to identify that truck at ALA in advance?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: worldwide
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Different Fuel Type
Hi, just wanted to mention. I had the same problem in Almaty and in Astana.
I did not have enough fuel after refueing was done. Fuel just disappeared after fueling stopped. Very strange but happens all the time there and everybody knows and adds some hundreds on the refueling.
Now after refueling a ton or so we start the engines and at the T/O position we suddenly got a ton more in fuel indication. Lucky we did calculation with some air for the speeds.
It all appeared suddenly.
Investigation is still going on.
But something else: The fuel used is not a Jet A-1 or A. It is a russian production and some "K" stuff. Almost like Jet A-1 but not all the way.
Maybe they just pumped the stuff with too high pressure and it generated foam and concluding wrong indications ?
I do not believe the fueltruck story, seems also just a problem with one aircraft type.
I did not have enough fuel after refueing was done. Fuel just disappeared after fueling stopped. Very strange but happens all the time there and everybody knows and adds some hundreds on the refueling.
Now after refueling a ton or so we start the engines and at the T/O position we suddenly got a ton more in fuel indication. Lucky we did calculation with some air for the speeds.
It all appeared suddenly.
Investigation is still going on.
But something else: The fuel used is not a Jet A-1 or A. It is a russian production and some "K" stuff. Almost like Jet A-1 but not all the way.
Maybe they just pumped the stuff with too high pressure and it generated foam and concluding wrong indications ?
I do not believe the fueltruck story, seems also just a problem with one aircraft type.
