Don't put it in the Tech Log!
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Dre's mum's house
Posts: 1,432
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ASFKAP
Sorry but as well as phoning home with the OFDM data, which is encrypted, the jet also phones home reporting any snags.
I had an emergency exit indicate as open on the landing run on touchdown in TFS: by the time we had the pax disembarked a Spanish engineer from Futura appeared clutching a fax from Maintrol asking him to check the aircraft for the specific fault. I hadn't phoned Ops or Maintrol, nether had the FO.
Sorry but as well as phoning home with the OFDM data, which is encrypted, the jet also phones home reporting any snags.
I had an emergency exit indicate as open on the landing run on touchdown in TFS: by the time we had the pax disembarked a Spanish engineer from Futura appeared clutching a fax from Maintrol asking him to check the aircraft for the specific fault. I hadn't phoned Ops or Maintrol, nether had the FO.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: under a bridge
Age: 39
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry but as well as phoning home with the OFDM data, which is encrypted, the jet also phones home reporting any snags.
I had an emergency exit indicate as open on the landing run on touchdown in TFS: by the time we had the pax disembarked a Spanish engineer from Futura appeared clutching a fax from Maintrol asking him to check the aircraft for the specific fault. I hadn't phoned Ops or Maintrol, nether had the FO.
What kind of maintenance diagnostic system does the NG have? i have never had the privelage of working on a shiny boeing.
I know our QARs are downloaded at certain stations at certain intervals, and as far as im aware the information is mosty Trend with a small selection of data from the FDR, with full FDR downloads taken manually at longer intervals. The data is generally sent away for analysis.
as for the whole tech log issue....Put it in the book and give a verbal debrief (if met by an engineer) it makes the job a lot easier. i couldnt give much of a hoot if the aircraft is grounded by an open entry. better safe than sorry
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Uk
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most airlines just have enough aircraft to cover their schedules these days. They operate at full steam.
Sometimes, it almost feels as if its your duty as a pilot or engineer to find away around the defect if there is no quick fix. "Creative writing" or "no writing at all"
So I say, as an engineer, put it in the tech log, go by the book, highlight that airlines are overstreching their fleets,crews and their engineers. Put the pressure on Management to run the airline as it should be run.
Sometimes, it almost feels as if its your duty as a pilot or engineer to find away around the defect if there is no quick fix. "Creative writing" or "no writing at all"
So I say, as an engineer, put it in the tech log, go by the book, highlight that airlines are overstreching their fleets,crews and their engineers. Put the pressure on Management to run the airline as it should be run.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lost
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nutloose
After reading your comment on the engine reving high I am trying to understand what you mean. Lycoming engine with constant speed propeller? This would have a propeller governor with low pitch stop setting? Adjusting the stop screw would in return adjust engine rpm by adjusting blade angle. If I am way off base of what you meant let me know.
I agree everything should be put into the tech logs along with talking to maint about it. Alot of times mechanics will have a better understanding of what prob is and will have a better starting point.
FlyingWrench
After reading your comment on the engine reving high I am trying to understand what you mean. Lycoming engine with constant speed propeller? This would have a propeller governor with low pitch stop setting? Adjusting the stop screw would in return adjust engine rpm by adjusting blade angle. If I am way off base of what you meant let me know.
I agree everything should be put into the tech logs along with talking to maint about it. Alot of times mechanics will have a better understanding of what prob is and will have a better starting point.
FlyingWrench
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote "I've wondered for years about one-way reliability. You know what I mean: all defects occur on the inbound sector, usually the last of the day. 
That dreaded phrase, uttered by a tired pilot talking to OPS: "Is this aircraft down for the night?" Loud groans from the Line Maintenance office.
On a related matter, I've audited several GA commercial operations. The audit of their technical logs often reveal no defects for weeks.
" Unquote
...and not forgetting the flurry of entries that appear just before an aircraft goes in on its Basecheck
That dreaded phrase, uttered by a tired pilot talking to OPS: "Is this aircraft down for the night?" Loud groans from the Line Maintenance office.
On a related matter, I've audited several GA commercial operations. The audit of their technical logs often reveal no defects for weeks.
" Unquote...and not forgetting the flurry of entries that appear just before an aircraft goes in on its Basecheck
Join Date: May 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a licensed engineer, my view has always been 'stick it in the book'.
If it's a minor defect of no consequence '...nosewheel appears dusty...' I can always fix it/pen it off.
If I can't fix it, pen it or ADD it, then it should quite righty ground the aircraft.
The rule of thumb I always use with defects is 'would I let my kids fly on this aircraft?' Of course that rule does cause problems as they grow up to be teenagers...
If it's a minor defect of no consequence '...nosewheel appears dusty...' I can always fix it/pen it off.
If I can't fix it, pen it or ADD it, then it should quite righty ground the aircraft.
The rule of thumb I always use with defects is 'would I let my kids fly on this aircraft?' Of course that rule does cause problems as they grow up to be teenagers...
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: canada
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I like to have a good working relationship with my crews. If they don't trust me, or respect me, then I try to fix that situation. Safety begins with comunication.
I have on occasion had to work with the odd "Blue Blood", and this is the worst kind of human around. They are arrogant, and think that they are the only people who know about aircraft. This kind of person is the kind who writes up a snag and runs off to the bar. When the snag is read, it does not relate to anything specific, and the fault is not found, and either a great deal of time is wasted, or a minor snag is fixed, and the intended snag is not dealt with.
As to what gets writen up, I prefer to have the crew write up any snag they find, regardless of how minor it is. The only time I ever deviate from this practice, is if it will ground the aircraft for a cosmetic item. I will discuss with the crew the best way to write up the snag, so as it gives the possibility to make a temporary repair, or put it in a defect log if possible.
This gives the crew faith that you will deal with the issues they have, and you also have faith that they will discuss with you before they write things up and run to the bar.
At the end of the day, we are there to be safe, and make money. Can't do that if the aircraft is broken, or falls out of the sky.
I have on occasion had to work with the odd "Blue Blood", and this is the worst kind of human around. They are arrogant, and think that they are the only people who know about aircraft. This kind of person is the kind who writes up a snag and runs off to the bar. When the snag is read, it does not relate to anything specific, and the fault is not found, and either a great deal of time is wasted, or a minor snag is fixed, and the intended snag is not dealt with.
As to what gets writen up, I prefer to have the crew write up any snag they find, regardless of how minor it is. The only time I ever deviate from this practice, is if it will ground the aircraft for a cosmetic item. I will discuss with the crew the best way to write up the snag, so as it gives the possibility to make a temporary repair, or put it in a defect log if possible.
This gives the crew faith that you will deal with the issues they have, and you also have faith that they will discuss with you before they write things up and run to the bar.
At the end of the day, we are there to be safe, and make money. Can't do that if the aircraft is broken, or falls out of the sky.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 59
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it's a cosmetic item, how will it ground the aircraft?
Same principle for flight sims guys and gals, write it up in the log book please.
For recurrent defects it might be worth looking at the answer to the previous time it was snagged before deciding to add it again.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If anyone doubts the extent to which fag packet reporting has been taken in UK scheduled service in the recent past this is the fleet defect list that I gave to our chief engineer after months of scribbled notes on the back of the previous crew's met-brief . News of the serious accident (with pax on board) that prompted this action, and the resulting accident report never made it to the CAA's safety executive, and incredibly no official record of it exists that I can find today. The Flt Ops inspector was totally dismissive and uninterested, (He was approaching retirement and I suspect he knew full well but didn't want the ruckus to hazard his index linked pension)
I've never seen anything like it since, though whispers suggest this was not the end of such behaviour in this particular company.
I was made redundant days after submitting the list, despite a shortage of pilots.
Didn't have the right attitude, thank God!
Best chuck-up I ever got!
G-XXXX
Radar U/S...Tests OK but onWx displays “FAULT” and shows no returns.
Overhead c/b panel illumination u/s
P1 AI moves in 1-3deg jerks in roll, 1-2deg jerks in pitch, eyebrow roll indicator moves (jerks) independant of AI.
PA inaudible in flight
Chimes u/s
LH engine will not start first on batt, no light-off
No wing de ice light
G-YYYY
De ice boots, no indication tail & outers
Radar u/s
Compass systems up tp 10’ out of sync
P1 AI moves in 2’ increments, pitch & roll, skypointer out of sync w. horizon tape
Chime inaudible at rear of cabin
PA inaudible in flight
Hdg bug couples up to 3’rt of rh edge of bug
Tech log entry ’tail de ice boots’ no other info given
no wing de ice light
G-ZZZZ
Radarperformance poor
Placarded ‘No 136.0 both radios
Unable contact 134.6/136.4
ADF may indicate 180’ out. Cycling invertor may cure.
no wing de ice light
No 1 eng performance; 80% Tq on t/o, ITT limited, better when airborne
G-AAAA
P1 AI moves in 2drg increments (jerks) in pitch and roll. Skypointer out of sync with horizon
P2 Masrer Warn u/s
Outer de ice boot cycle u/s indication
P1 screen heat u/s
no wing de ice light
P1 RMI no.1 switch u/s, VOR selection very difficult to sustain
Heater u/s Auto, over sensitive in man.
Flap not to be used, posible Assy or stuck if retracted (note in tech log)
Severe nosewheel shimmy (reported to ch. eng)
P1 VOR/ILS indications severely inaccurate, see ILS incident (date). A/C signed u/s in tech log (same date). no change/ADD (later date)
Nb. Pilot was summoned to HQ for an interview without coffee for writing up this defect, and his Professionalism severely questioned by Ch Exec.
Radar u/s
No 1 glideslope sticks up
G-BBBB
Radar u/s
Screen de-ice causes unacceptable & loud heterodyne whine in intercom
PA works, but bleeds over onto other station box obliterating RT traffic
VHF, not equipped for 136+ Mhz
Both clocks u/s
No 1 Glideslope sticks up
No reading lamps in cabin
No wing de-ice light
Picture flying these heaps of junk in icing conditions, and on instruments. Scary, isn't it?
And all from a culture that had captains in fear of their jobs if they wrote an aircraft u/s.
so, WRITE IT IN THE TECH LOG!
I've never seen anything like it since, though whispers suggest this was not the end of such behaviour in this particular company.
I was made redundant days after submitting the list, despite a shortage of pilots.
Didn't have the right attitude, thank God!
Best chuck-up I ever got!
G-XXXX
Radar U/S...Tests OK but onWx displays “FAULT” and shows no returns.
Overhead c/b panel illumination u/s
P1 AI moves in 1-3deg jerks in roll, 1-2deg jerks in pitch, eyebrow roll indicator moves (jerks) independant of AI.
PA inaudible in flight
Chimes u/s
LH engine will not start first on batt, no light-off
No wing de ice light
G-YYYY
De ice boots, no indication tail & outers
Radar u/s
Compass systems up tp 10’ out of sync
P1 AI moves in 2’ increments, pitch & roll, skypointer out of sync w. horizon tape
Chime inaudible at rear of cabin
PA inaudible in flight
Hdg bug couples up to 3’rt of rh edge of bug
Tech log entry ’tail de ice boots’ no other info given
no wing de ice light
G-ZZZZ
Radarperformance poor
Placarded ‘No 136.0 both radios
Unable contact 134.6/136.4
ADF may indicate 180’ out. Cycling invertor may cure.
no wing de ice light
No 1 eng performance; 80% Tq on t/o, ITT limited, better when airborne
G-AAAA
P1 AI moves in 2drg increments (jerks) in pitch and roll. Skypointer out of sync with horizon
P2 Masrer Warn u/s
Outer de ice boot cycle u/s indication
P1 screen heat u/s
no wing de ice light
P1 RMI no.1 switch u/s, VOR selection very difficult to sustain
Heater u/s Auto, over sensitive in man.
Flap not to be used, posible Assy or stuck if retracted (note in tech log)
Severe nosewheel shimmy (reported to ch. eng)
P1 VOR/ILS indications severely inaccurate, see ILS incident (date). A/C signed u/s in tech log (same date). no change/ADD (later date)
Nb. Pilot was summoned to HQ for an interview without coffee for writing up this defect, and his Professionalism severely questioned by Ch Exec.
Radar u/s
No 1 glideslope sticks up
G-BBBB
Radar u/s
Screen de-ice causes unacceptable & loud heterodyne whine in intercom
PA works, but bleeds over onto other station box obliterating RT traffic
VHF, not equipped for 136+ Mhz
Both clocks u/s
No 1 Glideslope sticks up
No reading lamps in cabin
No wing de-ice light
Picture flying these heaps of junk in icing conditions, and on instruments. Scary, isn't it?
And all from a culture that had captains in fear of their jobs if they wrote an aircraft u/s.
so, WRITE IT IN THE TECH LOG!
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 27th Aug 2008 at 13:28.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 673
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
if it will ground the aircraft for a cosmetic item.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: La Belle Province
Posts: 2,179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I *think* the issue is that there may be no immediately available MX cover (at a remote destination say) and the crew may not be authorised/permitted to sign off the log themselves, either by company policy, regulatory edict, or union/demarkation issues.
It's analagous to having a sore, but not painful, tooth on vacation. If its not really bothering you, the hassle of finding a local dentist probably means you'll 'defer' the dental snag until you get home. But if you had a hypochondriac partner, and told them ('put it in the log') you'll be spending the next two days trying to say 'please, not the pliers' in pidgin-swahili or whatever ...
It's something likely trivial to deal with or defer with resources available, but a real bind in the wrong location.
It's analagous to having a sore, but not painful, tooth on vacation. If its not really bothering you, the hassle of finding a local dentist probably means you'll 'defer' the dental snag until you get home. But if you had a hypochondriac partner, and told them ('put it in the log') you'll be spending the next two days trying to say 'please, not the pliers' in pidgin-swahili or whatever ...
It's something likely trivial to deal with or defer with resources available, but a real bind in the wrong location.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,837
Received 2,806 Likes
on
1,195 Posts
FlyingWrench
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lost
Posts: 16
Nutloose
After reading your comment on the engine reving high I am trying to understand what you mean. Lycoming engine with constant speed propeller? This would have a propeller governor with low pitch stop setting? Adjusting the stop screw would in return adjust engine rpm by adjusting blade angle. If I am way off base of what you meant let me know.
I agree everything should be put into the tech logs along with talking to maint about it. Alot of times mechanics will have a better understanding of what prob is and will have a better starting point.
FlyingWrench
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lost
Posts: 16
Nutloose
After reading your comment on the engine reving high I am trying to understand what you mean. Lycoming engine with constant speed propeller? This would have a propeller governor with low pitch stop setting? Adjusting the stop screw would in return adjust engine rpm by adjusting blade angle. If I am way off base of what you meant let me know.
I agree everything should be put into the tech logs along with talking to maint about it. Alot of times mechanics will have a better understanding of what prob is and will have a better starting point.
FlyingWrench
In our case, the Engine Manufacturers continuous rated Max RPM for the Engine in question is actually is higher than the redline on the Aircraft Tacho and the Aircraft TDC RPM figures by a couple of hundred RPM, which is why I went to both Manufacturers and the CAA........ go figure.
That being the case the Engine was reving well below its Max Continuous figure but just over the Aircraft Redline by about 50 RPM in the climb, the Prop was checked and overhauled and also found to be well within limits.. That is why we could not understand how an Aircraft could possibly have a Redline lower than what the Engine was capable of producing in normal operation, naturally you would assume the prop would govern it, but that too as said was all within the manufacturers limits. There being no adjustment possible to the max RPM stop and all the fuel flows being correct, maybe we just got close to a "Blueprinted" engine.
N.B
For those in here that may not know what a "BluePrinted" engine is, It is a theoretical engine that is as close to the original manafacturers drawings as possible, hence "Blueprinted"..... a production engine will not come close to this as you will often get lips, casting marks etc such as where the induction manifold bolts onto the heads which cause poor airflows and disruptions to it and reduce performance and overall power output. That is why when you hear of a "Blueprinted" engine being fitted to a car etc it will have had all the casting marks and lips machined down to get them as smooth and close to what the manufacturer had envisioned in the design as possible, which will give you a more efficent engine that produces more power.
Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Aug 2008 at 09:29.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think some people would be suprised the amount of defects that are hidden from the tech log.
Work requests, base maintenance files and Virtual tech log entries represent aircraft defects but have no physical presence within the log. Should this be the case it does go on and is approved?.....
Therefore, any defect that is entered is looked at by a team of professionals, trended, monitored etc so it is always worth writing it in.
How would the information be recieved if you did know that an intermittent fault existed, it was being looked at by a technical department and annotated within the log as a supplement...
Should the defect be a snag, locked out, deferred, full stop or should a 'for info' item be entered to relay further data??.. Cheers
Work requests, base maintenance files and Virtual tech log entries represent aircraft defects but have no physical presence within the log. Should this be the case it does go on and is approved?.....
Therefore, any defect that is entered is looked at by a team of professionals, trended, monitored etc so it is always worth writing it in.
How would the information be recieved if you did know that an intermittent fault existed, it was being looked at by a technical department and annotated within the log as a supplement...
Should the defect be a snag, locked out, deferred, full stop or should a 'for info' item be entered to relay further data??.. Cheers
Same principle for flight sims guys and gals, write it up in the log book please.
I totally agree, and a great point. Nothing ticks me off more than an instructor (IP) that comes out of the sim saying:
"It's been doing that for a while now."
Me "Did you write it up?"
IP "Ah, no, I thought you knew about it."
Aughhhhh.
Of course the other one would be after a host crash:
Me "So, just what were you doing just before it crashed?"
IP "Nothing..."
While I don't expect an IP to trouble shoot my sim (or the aircraft either) being able to tell me the last couple of things they did or used is a great help in troubleshooting. Cuts down on the CND's