Emergency Descent
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Emergency Descent
I understand that in the UK that if we do an emergency descent then ATC would rather us maintain our present Heading to descend rather than start turning off airways .
Is this the same in European RVSM Airspace??
Is this the same in European RVSM Airspace??
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Questions:
1. Reading Euro Control ACAS bulletin 9 it says set Transponder to TA Only. This is because you are performance impaired and do not want an RA to opose the Emergency descent.
2. Following good CRM practices, whereby you include ATC in the loop, would you declare a MayDay and request a descent clearance, or just throw a dropping brick onto ATC radar screens who would then scream at you to maintain level? You would then have to explain why you are dropping out of the sky. Why not emply good teamwork and wait a few seconds. No-ones going to die form O2 starvation, but they might from a rushed procedure and ATC confusion.
What do you do SOP? What do you Think, Airmanship?
Given the apparent differences in ATC regions, might not including ATC in your intentions be a sound idea?
1. Reading Euro Control ACAS bulletin 9 it says set Transponder to TA Only. This is because you are performance impaired and do not want an RA to opose the Emergency descent.
2. Following good CRM practices, whereby you include ATC in the loop, would you declare a MayDay and request a descent clearance, or just throw a dropping brick onto ATC radar screens who would then scream at you to maintain level? You would then have to explain why you are dropping out of the sky. Why not emply good teamwork and wait a few seconds. No-ones going to die form O2 starvation, but they might from a rushed procedure and ATC confusion.
What do you do SOP? What do you Think, Airmanship?
Given the apparent differences in ATC regions, might not including ATC in your intentions be a sound idea?
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Rat 5, so if ATC scream at you and tell you to stay level while your window just blew out, you would I assume with your answer?!...
I would keep ATC in the loop... and tell them what we are doing... not ask...
All nice and well your statements sitting behind your desk, but what about this when it really, and usually totally unexpected, actually happens. Me thinks you would be happy getting your mask on and getting the aircraft to a more safe altitude and somewhere in the middle worry about ATC. I know I wouldn't get really upset getting an RA caused by an aircraft making an emergency descent...
Oh and I only fly in the nice and busy radar controlled euro airspace so I wont be making any turns either. I think it would be more likely to bring me onto someone elses path then just going straight down... If not, informing ATC should be enough to clear the way...
I would keep ATC in the loop... and tell them what we are doing... not ask...
All nice and well your statements sitting behind your desk, but what about this when it really, and usually totally unexpected, actually happens. Me thinks you would be happy getting your mask on and getting the aircraft to a more safe altitude and somewhere in the middle worry about ATC. I know I wouldn't get really upset getting an RA caused by an aircraft making an emergency descent...
Oh and I only fly in the nice and busy radar controlled euro airspace so I wont be making any turns either. I think it would be more likely to bring me onto someone elses path then just going straight down... If not, informing ATC should be enough to clear the way...
Last edited by XLNL; 13th Aug 2008 at 22:13.
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Im sure RAT5 is , I guess making a point in a more milder situation (i hope!) in the tube I fly we regularly operate up there at the mid forties T.U.C is a mere handful of breaths if its catastrophic. The last thing on my mind (if I can think at this stage
) is getting down, I'll leave the TCAS to talk to other TCAS' , ATC can scream all they like I probably wont hear them anyway!
) is getting down, I'll leave the TCAS to talk to other TCAS' , ATC can scream all they like I probably wont hear them anyway!
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RAT5
"2. Following good CRM practices, whereby you include ATC in the loop, would you declare a MayDay and request a descent clearance, or just throw a dropping brick onto ATC radar screens who would then scream at you to maintain level? You would then have to explain why you are dropping out of the sky. Why not emply good teamwork and wait a few seconds. No-ones going to die form O2 starvation, but they might from a rushed procedure and ATC confusion"
To use the old adage of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, I would have to say getting the aircraft to a level where use of oxygen equipment is no longer required is probably the most important factor. TUC even in the thirties is measured in seconds, and considering how difficult crew communication is when using the masks it's best all round to get to FL100 (or MSA)
I would have to agree that turning isn't something that would cross my mind, indeed during my last OPC we never turned the aircraft during emergency descent (SOP doesn't specify a turn) and hopefully TCAS II will look after vertical seperation. Setting 7700 will help ATC to move other aircraft away, and the advantage is that it's ATC setting the headings, not a descending aircraft at -6000fpm turning 90 deg right or left! At least if you stay on heading ATC can predict where your going to be in 1,2 or 3 minutes...
Atreyu
"2. Following good CRM practices, whereby you include ATC in the loop, would you declare a MayDay and request a descent clearance, or just throw a dropping brick onto ATC radar screens who would then scream at you to maintain level? You would then have to explain why you are dropping out of the sky. Why not emply good teamwork and wait a few seconds. No-ones going to die form O2 starvation, but they might from a rushed procedure and ATC confusion"
To use the old adage of Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, I would have to say getting the aircraft to a level where use of oxygen equipment is no longer required is probably the most important factor. TUC even in the thirties is measured in seconds, and considering how difficult crew communication is when using the masks it's best all round to get to FL100 (or MSA
)I would have to agree that turning isn't something that would cross my mind, indeed during my last OPC we never turned the aircraft during emergency descent (SOP doesn't specify a turn) and hopefully TCAS II will look after vertical seperation. Setting 7700 will help ATC to move other aircraft away, and the advantage is that it's ATC setting the headings, not a descending aircraft at -6000fpm turning 90 deg right or left! At least if you stay on heading ATC can predict where your going to be in 1,2 or 3 minutes...
Atreyu
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No-ones going to die form O2 starvation, but they might from a rushed procedure
In these cases, any delay initiating an emergency descent will reduce their chances of survival or at the very least they may risk brain damage. The "book" talks about trying to get the cabin under control before making the decision to go down in a hurry. There is a good case for initiating the emergency descent while simultaneously trying to get the cabin pressure under control. Every second is critical when it comes to brain damage due to lack of oxygen and with 100 plus passengers aboard it's a good bet that at least four or five will have difficulty with oxygen masks.
