Boeing 757 How to make Circles on Fix-Page?
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Boeing 757 How to make Circles on Fix-Page?
Hello 757-Flyers,
how Do create a circle around a point on the fix-page of an older Collins-FMS?
The usual procedure to insert e.g. /25 in a LSK 2L or 3L does not work here.
Is there a special prefix or procedure to do it?
Thanks.
how Do create a circle around a point on the fix-page of an older Collins-FMS?
The usual procedure to insert e.g. /25 in a LSK 2L or 3L does not work here.
Is there a special prefix or procedure to do it?
Thanks.
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Boeing is known for having two colored cockpits, Brown (757, 767,777,747) and grey(737) so you will have a brown box (HWL FMS) or a grey box (Smiths) So I dont think that Collins would have any FMS on Brown cockpits, having said that, I dont think either that we can create circles ( a part from hold entering 0 for the leg lenght) since circle (radius to fix leg type) were not in the ARINC 424 -7 protocol which is the protocol used in the old box.
Boeing is known for having two colored cockpits, Brown (757, 767,777,747) and grey(737) so you will have a brown box (HWL FMS) or a grey box (Smiths) So I dont think that Collins would have any FMS on Brown cockpits, having said that, I dont think either that we can create circles ( a part from hold entering 0 for the leg lenght) since circle (radius to fix leg type) were not in the ARINC 424 -7 protocol which is the protocol used in the old box.
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Leave it to Boeing to make us wonder what's going on. The B787 has Honeywell and has a gray flight deck! I think this question is refering to the energy rings and if so I know you can do them on a PIP although that may be an option as are any number of features above and beyond the standard issue. An example would be the 4th page on the FIX page of the 777.
, unrelevant remarks will not make you smarter, since you didnot even understand the question.Join Date: Mar 2007
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You talk'n to me? If so I guess I missed your point. How about sharing some of that infomation on the energy management circles that can be found via the off path descent page. You have correctly pointed out that Boeing's do not use Collins FMS, only Smith and Honeywell at this time, so what else do we need to know other than it can't be done on an FMS that does not exist in a Boeing aircraft? Don't want to start a contest, just trying to figure out where your coming from on this issue.
Regards!
Regards!
Last edited by Spooky 2; 3rd Aug 2008 at 20:11.
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Wow you guys take this stuff serious. Threatened the CP
? Don't what your flying but if you have a B757/767 with a PIP/or Pegasus and the Off Path descent feature you have "enery management circles. If you don't like the name, take it up with Honeywell. I'm out of here before this conversation turns violent.
? Don't what your flying but if you have a B757/767 with a PIP/or Pegasus and the Off Path descent feature you have "enery management circles. If you don't like the name, take it up with Honeywell. I'm out of here before this conversation turns violent.
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The answer to the original question is that yes it can be done on a 757.
There are a few variants of FMC. PIP/Pegasus etc
You will need a pegasus FMC to be able to do it. If you are not sure, go to the fix page and if Key 6R has a FL/ETA prompt it is a pegasus FMC.
This FMC on the fix page allows you to enter radials and distances on the left hand side at keys 2/3/4L under BRG/DIST in the format say 270/50 i.e 270R and 50 miles. If you simply leave the bearing info out and enter a distance in the format /50 in this case, it will draw a ring around the waypoint at the desired distance.
Hey Presto!
There are a few variants of FMC. PIP/Pegasus etc
You will need a pegasus FMC to be able to do it. If you are not sure, go to the fix page and if Key 6R has a FL/ETA prompt it is a pegasus FMC.
This FMC on the fix page allows you to enter radials and distances on the left hand side at keys 2/3/4L under BRG/DIST in the format say 270/50 i.e 270R and 50 miles. If you simply leave the bearing info out and enter a distance in the format /50 in this case, it will draw a ring around the waypoint at the desired distance.
Hey Presto!
Last edited by KUMOOZ; 4th Aug 2008 at 07:14.
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Offpath Descent - Energy Management Rings
Where fitted (think only on pegasus/PIP FMC's) the Offpath Des when selected on displays 2 rings around the aircraft, one is a 'clean' ring the other is a 'drag req'd' ring. If you are outside the first ring (idle power) you may find you are in a low energy situation and may need to use power. If you start getting inside the second ring - drag req'd. You may find yourslef getting hot/high etc etc. As long as you remain inbetween the two rings you are in a good position to fly an idle power approach
Its quite useful initially I found when training but after a while become a bit distracting.
Its quite useful initially I found when training but after a while become a bit distracting.
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Okay,I'm laughing with you now, not at you! CP, as in Chief Pilot. I simply took the question to from a different slant since there are no Collins FMS in Boeing's the question was moot. What some pilots fail to understand is that there are soooo many variations on a B757/767 FMS that it's hard to talk about one case without knowing exactly what the operator has in his box and believe me there are many options. Look on your Descent page the next time and see what your Off Path Descent has to offer. That is what I was refering to as I thought that maybe those were the rings he refered to.
No problem other than one man's 757/767 may not even begin to resemble the next operators aircraft. Example; how many B767's have you seen with 3 HMG's or a Hyd. driven emergency fuel boost pump? Well they all have existed and the point is that one needs to becareful when he lumps all versions together. Honeywell offers numerous features on all of their later FMS units so without having a real hands on encounter it's hard to say what your looking at. Check out that Off Path Descent faeture...pretty nice stuff for certain occasions.
No problem other than one man's 757/767 may not even begin to resemble the next operators aircraft. Example; how many B767's have you seen with 3 HMG's or a Hyd. driven emergency fuel boost pump? Well they all have existed and the point is that one needs to becareful when he lumps all versions together. Honeywell offers numerous features on all of their later FMS units so without having a real hands on encounter it's hard to say what your looking at. Check out that Off Path Descent faeture...pretty nice stuff for certain occasions.
Last edited by Spooky 2; 3rd Aug 2008 at 21:03. Reason: spell
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Off Path Descent is available on the PIP. Easiest way to recognize a Pegasus FMS is that a single VNAV key replaces the Climb, Cruise and Descent keys....although I have heard that there is a Pegasus with all three keys. Must be a Pegasus Jr!
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One more FMS example. Required Time of Arrivals (RTA) are seldom seen on 757/767 even with Pegasus. It's about a $60,000 option and if the operator is not into FANS, they simply opt out. RTA's are usually found on Progress pages 3 or 4. There are a lot of 747's running around with minimal FMS packages. A few don't even have GPS, but that is becoming more rare as the years go by. I would not even begin to describe the options available for the 777 and soon to be 787.
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Thanks Rainboe
RTA was invented by Smiths (grey box) ahead of anybody (in fact the smiths FMS is the most advanced) and its RTA was/is valid for any flight phase with a 6 sec precision, on top of that you have an RTA window, to be used for example if you are Oceanic (+/_ 3 minutes )
IT is only at a later stage that ICAO saw a good tool for FANS, and for timed Approaches.
Thanks Rainboe
RTA was invented by Smiths (grey box) ahead of anybody (in fact the smiths FMS is the most advanced) and its RTA was/is valid for any flight phase with a 6 sec precision, on top of that you have an RTA window, to be used for example if you are Oceanic (+/_ 3 minutes )
IT is only at a later stage that ICAO saw a good tool for FANS, and for timed Approaches.
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One other issue here....
You need a PIP/Pegasus FMC...
and you need a symbol generator of sufficient newness....what I mean is that the original generation symbol generators will not draw the circle on the display and in fact can cause the EHSI to fail....if that happens all one has to do is remove the fix from the fix page and EHSI functionality is restored.
So it is a combination of the FMC and symbol generator...
cheers
You need a PIP/Pegasus FMC...
and you need a symbol generator of sufficient newness....what I mean is that the original generation symbol generators will not draw the circle on the display and in fact can cause the EHSI to fail....if that happens all one has to do is remove the fix from the fix page and EHSI functionality is restored.
So it is a combination of the FMC and symbol generator...
cheers
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I agree partially, (on the NAV DISPLAY the range marks are curved,no?)
The limitation as I posted before comes from the inability of the processor used in the early FMS to process ARINC 424-10 and beyong curved leg types such as Radius form FIX, Dme Arc and so on.
The curved line, the old system could draw was a fake circle composed of zillions of waypointsone next to the other, these waypoints are called "Fantom Waypoint" because just like Gasper you know they exist but you cannot see them.
I suppose that the computor reset on the graphic generator side)was triggered by too namy waypoints to process
I agree partially, (on the NAV DISPLAY the range marks are curved,no?)
The limitation as I posted before comes from the inability of the processor used in the early FMS to process ARINC 424-10 and beyong curved leg types such as Radius form FIX, Dme Arc and so on.
The curved line, the old system could draw was a fake circle composed of zillions of waypointsone next to the other, these waypoints are called "Fantom Waypoint" because just like Gasper you know they exist but you cannot see them.
I suppose that the computor reset on the graphic generator side)was triggered by too namy waypoints to process
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You are absolutely right and somewhere around 1989/90 was when Boeing/Honewell started installing the the more powerful versions as standard equipment. Symbol Generators are not cheap, so if you need to upgrade them just to get these few added feature it simply becomes cost prohibitive to most operators.
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Greetings,
FYI today you have to be compliant with RNP specific legs (most of them Turns and/or curves, I thnk it is the RTCA DO 236A spec) at least to be sure that the aircraft will stay within the RNP corridor during a Turn, so what was a cost
yesterday is a price today
.
Most airlines make the same mistakes time and time again, instead of taking the advantage of competition during equipment selection (BFE) and get a very good price, they skip options, few years later there is an operational requirement and then BANG
FYI today you have to be compliant with RNP specific legs (most of them Turns and/or curves, I thnk it is the RTCA DO 236A spec) at least to be sure that the aircraft will stay within the RNP corridor during a Turn, so what was a cost
yesterday is a price today.Most airlines make the same mistakes time and time again, instead of taking the advantage of competition during equipment selection (BFE) and get a very good price, they skip options, few years later there is an operational requirement and then BANG
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This reminds me of the old "T word" joke
( Q-how many Nigels does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer=100,1 to change the bulb, 99 to tell you how they changed the bulb on the Trident)
The answer to Pittsle's question is - You can't!
( Q-how many Nigels does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer=100,1 to change the bulb, 99 to tell you how they changed the bulb on the Trident)
The answer to Pittsle's question is - You can't!