Three engine airplane with two eng inop
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Three engine airplane with two eng inop
Hi guys
maybe a silly question, I know that aircraft must be able to continue the flight with an engine inop, in case of four-engine plane even with two engines inop.
My question is, is it possible to continue the flight also in three-engine plane with two engines inop? In that case, it means that you have only 33 percent of thrust available
Is it sufficient?
Thanks for answers
Quest147
maybe a silly question, I know that aircraft must be able to continue the flight with an engine inop, in case of four-engine plane even with two engines inop.
My question is, is it possible to continue the flight also in three-engine plane with two engines inop? In that case, it means that you have only 33 percent of thrust available
Is it sufficient?Thanks for answers
Quest147
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At typical mid-flight enroute weights, the L-1011 (specific model depending on the engines installed) will drift down to around 10,000 MSL with two engines inop.
Two engines inop go-arounds are also possible, if light enough (and started high enough), and the ambient temperature is reasonable.
In the latter case, two engine inop autolands are also possible, using Flap 10, depending on hydraulic system(s) status.
L-1011, a very systems redundant aeroplane.
Two engines inop go-arounds are also possible, if light enough (and started high enough), and the ambient temperature is reasonable.
In the latter case, two engine inop autolands are also possible, using Flap 10, depending on hydraulic system(s) status.
L-1011, a very systems redundant aeroplane.
The DC-10 could make it to either Gander or Shannon from the middle of the pond on one engine. Mind you, if I remember correctly, you were in for a no flap/no slat landing when you got there.
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Scenario.
L1011 Sim, BAH.
Captain (myself) is performing a two engine inop go-around, for a PC.
At 800 agl, with gear extended (flaps 10) the runway is blocked.
Speed, Vref+30.
Result?
MAX absolute thrust from the operating engine (number three, as I recall), continue descent, request gear UP, and flaps 4.
So far, so good.
When 180 knots IAS achieved, I request flaps UP and anticipate descending until 210 is achieved, where a climb is then possible.
Opps!
The First Officer then says...sorry Captain, 180 is too slow for flaps UP.
Opps again.
These are under 'normal' circumstances...not in the present emergency situation
RTFB.
Check pilot has an absolute fit.
Stops the sim, and proceeds to chew out the (new) First Officer, thusly...
'The Captain has 9,000 command hours in the TriStar, you had better learn from him and actually read the manual, otherwise, you are dead meat.'
The First Officer, then suitably 'organized' performs extremely well, and is passed as suitable...with a reminder... 'Listen to the experience expat Captains bring to this airline, listen and learn, or you are no good.'
Firm, but fair...works every time.
An absolutely true story.
The Check Captain, by the way, was a local guy.
No surprise, there.
L1011 Sim, BAH.
Captain (myself) is performing a two engine inop go-around, for a PC.
At 800 agl, with gear extended (flaps 10) the runway is blocked.
Speed, Vref+30.
Result?
MAX absolute thrust from the operating engine (number three, as I recall), continue descent, request gear UP, and flaps 4.
So far, so good.
When 180 knots IAS achieved, I request flaps UP and anticipate descending until 210 is achieved, where a climb is then possible.
Opps!
The First Officer then says...sorry Captain, 180 is too slow for flaps UP.
Opps again.
These are under 'normal' circumstances...not in the present emergency situation
RTFB.
Check pilot has an absolute fit.
Stops the sim, and proceeds to chew out the (new) First Officer, thusly...
'The Captain has 9,000 command hours in the TriStar, you had better learn from him and actually read the manual, otherwise, you are dead meat.'
The First Officer, then suitably 'organized' performs extremely well, and is passed as suitable...with a reminder... 'Listen to the experience expat Captains bring to this airline, listen and learn, or you are no good.'
Firm, but fair...works every time.
An absolutely true story.
The Check Captain, by the way, was a local guy.
No surprise, there.
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In the latter case, two engine inop autolands are also possible, using Flap 10, depending on hydraulic system(s) status.
I've heard you talking about your beloved Tristar before, 411A, but this has got to be the most impressive bit by far!
I've heard you talking about your beloved Tristar before, 411A, but this has got to be the most impressive bit by far!
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The L-1011 was/IS unique, in many ways...just ask the folks who(m) have flown the aeroplane.
You will get an earfull...and with good reason.
Lockheed...often imitated, never equaled.
You will get an earfull...and with good reason.
Lockheed...often imitated, never equaled.
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I remember a story about a PanAm L1011-500 that set off on a 2-engine ferry from Mexico City (alt 7,000ft+) and one of the 'good engines' failed shortly after take-off. After a low-level circuit, it landed safely on one engine and the Captain kissed the good engine! 411A may be able to confirm this or consign it to the "mythology" section!
Certainly, I remember a sim session on the TriStar partly devoted to one-engine flying, fortunately never did it for real.
The B747-400 also flies on one engine -at below a certain low weight it will maintain altitude when clean and will make an approach with certain conditions -such as above the GS and very little power applied!
Certainly, I remember a sim session on the TriStar partly devoted to one-engine flying, fortunately never did it for real.
The B747-400 also flies on one engine -at below a certain low weight it will maintain altitude when clean and will make an approach with certain conditions -such as above the GS and very little power applied!
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Thanks for replies guys
Does anyone of you have performance charts for any threeholer regarding driftdoen altitude with two eng inop? Just for information
Thanks again
411A: One engine autoland? Speechless... Could you provide some reference, excerpt from manual or so?
Does anyone of you have performance charts for any threeholer regarding driftdoen altitude with two eng inop? Just for information
Thanks again
411A: One engine autoland?
Speechless... Could you provide some reference, excerpt from manual or so?
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411A: One engine autoland? Speechless... Could you provide some reference, excerpt from manual or so?
From the L1011 manual from one very noteworthy airline.
" An automatic single engine approach/land maneuver is possible, provided that system 'B' hydraulics, is available."
TriStar..I repeat, a quite good aeroplane, that never let me (personally) down...for the last 28 years.
Yeah..it is that reliable.
Them's the facts.
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Getting back to the orignal question...
Years ago (almost 30), I flew the 727 (both the 100 and 200), and it, in fact, could fly on only one engine. But, you had to have speed, no drag, and you had to realize that you were limited in terms of density altitude.
If I recall (others, help me out, please), you needed to be clean and have 200 KIAS. Then, you would be able to fly.
For example, coming down the glide path with only one engine turning...limited flaps/gear down...and, you decide to go around (for whatever reason)...you had to get the gear and flaps/slats up, and accelerate to about 200 KIAS (as you continue down the glide path). Once you got clean and 200 KIAS, you would be able to climb.
As memory serves, based on typical gross weights, you were limited to maybe 6000 to 8000 feet density altitude. But, at least it would fly.
I don't have any experience with any other three-engine aircraft, so I can't speak for the TriStar, etc. However, I DO remember that flying the 727 with only one turning was a required maneuver in the simulator to obtain the type rating.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
If I recall (others, help me out, please), you needed to be clean and have 200 KIAS. Then, you would be able to fly.
For example, coming down the glide path with only one engine turning...limited flaps/gear down...and, you decide to go around (for whatever reason)...you had to get the gear and flaps/slats up, and accelerate to about 200 KIAS (as you continue down the glide path). Once you got clean and 200 KIAS, you would be able to climb.
As memory serves, based on typical gross weights, you were limited to maybe 6000 to 8000 feet density altitude. But, at least it would fly.
I don't have any experience with any other three-engine aircraft, so I can't speak for the TriStar, etc. However, I DO remember that flying the 727 with only one turning was a required maneuver in the simulator to obtain the type rating.
Fly safe,
PantLoad
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If I remember correctly (it was a long long time ago)the original 727 (as per the sales film by Boeing) did a take off on 1 engine (the tail-skid copped a hiding but it got off the ground) I think it was filmed at Edwards Air force base .(the other engines were at idle so electrics and hydraulics would still be available)
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When I was flying KC-135s we practiced at the instructors' school doing single engine approaches and go arounds. And the J57s put out only a pathetic 13,000lbs of thrust and we considered the airplane 'light' when we had only 40-50k of fuel on board for a gross weight of 160k.
Yes, it was touchy and you had to pay attention and anticipate the increased drag with extending gear and flaps but one could hold level flight with gear retracted and flaps at 30deg.
And in the 727s, the concern was that once you lost a hyd system due to an engine being lost you could not retract the gear or flaps so that became a major concern.
Yes, it was touchy and you had to pay attention and anticipate the increased drag with extending gear and flaps but one could hold level flight with gear retracted and flaps at 30deg.
And in the 727s, the concern was that once you lost a hyd system due to an engine being lost you could not retract the gear or flaps so that became a major concern.
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For example, coming down the glide path with only one engine turning...limited flaps/gear down...and, you decide to go around (for whatever reason)...you had to get the gear and flaps/slats up, and accelerate to about 200 KIAS (as you continue down the glide path). Once you got clean and 200 KIAS, you would be able to climb.
I have done this several times in the aeroplane, when the sim was not available for PC's...works as advertised.
This was a superb confidence maneuver for First Officers as well, although it was not a required (graded) requirement, for them.
Last edited by 411A; 24th May 2008 at 01:29.