Which side?
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Which side?
In a two-pilot aircraft the commander is located on the left-hand side of the flight deck in the case of fixed wing and on the right for rotary wing. How did this come about, and are there any ergonomic benefits?. What happens in the case of tilt-rotor?
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The PIC* in a helo sits on the right because helos are inherently unstable. While you can put some friction on the collective and let go, letting go of the cyclic is a bad idea. So if you sit on the right, you can use your left hand to tune radios and the like. Since the controls aren't mirrored, sitting on the left would mean you would have to "hand off" control of the cyclic to yourself everytime you wanted to twiddle a knob on the IP or overhead panel.
Tiltrotors use the same approach for the same reason. So the real question is why do fixed wing drivers sit on the left? My guess is that it's due to most fields using left-hand traffic, which I believe came from the horrid gyro-coupling exhibited by airplanes in the early rotary engine days.
*obviously, you can be PIC from either seat, but I'll just use that term to describe the customary usage.
Tiltrotors use the same approach for the same reason. So the real question is why do fixed wing drivers sit on the left? My guess is that it's due to most fields using left-hand traffic, which I believe came from the horrid gyro-coupling exhibited by airplanes in the early rotary engine days.
*obviously, you can be PIC from either seat, but I'll just use that term to describe the customary usage.
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Look up where the PIC sits in a Robinson R44 vs a Eurocopter Astar. Get back to me and let me know if I am sitting on the wrong side.
Now you're a helicopter pilot. Who'd have guessed?
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If you think about it
And I don't, much, Gr8Shandini is on to it. Igor was building a completely new technology, and being right handed, liked having his best hand on Cyclic, His Call, not ridiculous at all. There may be more to it, if there is, I am unfamiliar and want change back from my two....
Airfoil pence.
Airfoil pence.
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I fly both, sitting on the right works for me especially now that I have a side stick in the fixed wing and "point" it where I want it to go.
Sitting in the left seat and trying to fly with the left hand is a little conversion in itself I am told
.
Why do Capt`s sit in the left on Fixed Wings? Maybe so the right hand was free to cuff the surly FO`s and or backhand the FE back in the 30`s. See - it all boils down to CRM
.
So what was the first dual side by side and who sat where, Wright flyer?
Sitting in the left seat and trying to fly with the left hand is a little conversion in itself I am told
.Why do Capt`s sit in the left on Fixed Wings? Maybe so the right hand was free to cuff the surly FO`s and or backhand the FE back in the 30`s. See - it all boils down to CRM
.So what was the first dual side by side and who sat where, Wright flyer?
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the wright flyer(s) were all single seaters... but the pilot wasnt sat, he was laid!
so what i guess i mean is, they were all single pilot aircraft!
i got there in the end
so what i guess i mean is, they were all single pilot aircraft!
i got there in the end
Didn't this result from the mid-air collsion between two airliners over France in 1922?
They were flying in opposite directions in poor weather following the same railway line and collided head-on. After this the regulation was introduced that, if following a linear feature on the ground, you keep it on your left -hence opposite direction traffic would be on opposite sides of the feature.
When two pilot aircraft came along then the PIC sat on the left to keep visual with the feature.
They were flying in opposite directions in poor weather following the same railway line and collided head-on. After this the regulation was introduced that, if following a linear feature on the ground, you keep it on your left -hence opposite direction traffic would be on opposite sides of the feature.
When two pilot aircraft came along then the PIC sat on the left to keep visual with the feature.
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Planes: Historicaly, most of the time, when choosing where to put flight instruments and controls, being a choice, left side, so that's where the pilot sits. He can reach and see what he needs.
Even in more modern aircraft, where there is much more redundancy in instruments and controls for the right seat pilot, most of the time, serious systems circut breakers are closest to the captain on the left side.
Helcopters. The advancing blade on the main rotor creates more lift then the retreating blade in forward flight. The pilot sits on the side of the advancing blade to counteract the roll tendancy at higher speeds.
In aircraft where there is no intention of a single pilot captain, then certainly systems, controls and the design of the aircraft are much more blended to accomodate comfortable flight control from either side.
Certainly exceptions do exist, and varies from manufacterer, make and model, as someone's idea of where to put CB panels, controls, and instruments vary.
I could make the joke, that because most of the world drives on the right side of the road(the way it should be) that is why the pilot sits on the left side...more akin to driving a car, visualy more similar and comfortable on taxi ways, up in the air ect.
Even in more modern aircraft, where there is much more redundancy in instruments and controls for the right seat pilot, most of the time, serious systems circut breakers are closest to the captain on the left side.
Helcopters. The advancing blade on the main rotor creates more lift then the retreating blade in forward flight. The pilot sits on the side of the advancing blade to counteract the roll tendancy at higher speeds.
In aircraft where there is no intention of a single pilot captain, then certainly systems, controls and the design of the aircraft are much more blended to accomodate comfortable flight control from either side.
Certainly exceptions do exist, and varies from manufacterer, make and model, as someone's idea of where to put CB panels, controls, and instruments vary.
I could make the joke, that because most of the world drives on the right side of the road(the way it should be) that is why the pilot sits on the left side...more akin to driving a car, visualy more similar and comfortable on taxi ways, up in the air ect.
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Angels
Your theory re: advancing Blade works only for Helicopters that have a counterclockwise Disc. Besides, the retreating Blade has more AOA, (Cyclic), so it balances the mass regardless of the Bum in the seat.
Igor was comfortable with his good hand on cyclic and the "redundant" appendage working the Collective. If on a coml. helicopter, you'll find the primary collective in the middle, meaning the left arm is "free" to tend to the myriad of demands of a vehicle trying to thrash itself to pieces and murder its occupants on a more or less continuous basis. On a Trainer, if the training pilot is the more experienced (one would hope), he is the more capable to manouver lefty OR righty. Since the command seat is on the right, the training vehicle mimics the layout of the ultimate mount of the trainee.
Igor was comfortable with his good hand on cyclic and the "redundant" appendage working the Collective. If on a coml. helicopter, you'll find the primary collective in the middle, meaning the left arm is "free" to tend to the myriad of demands of a vehicle trying to thrash itself to pieces and murder its occupants on a more or less continuous basis. On a Trainer, if the training pilot is the more experienced (one would hope), he is the more capable to manouver lefty OR righty. Since the command seat is on the right, the training vehicle mimics the layout of the ultimate mount of the trainee.
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Airfoil...blades turn both ways on many helicopters, and as such, the tail rotors are installed accordingly.
In any event, I am comforatable now flying from either side...
In any event, I am comforatable now flying from either side...
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Angels, you can sit on whatever side you like. In fact, I know a few folks that like to sit on the left when long-lining as it's more comfortable to lean over the collective to look down than to lean your body away from both controls. However, that doesn't change the fact that it's customary for the PIC to sit on the right in a helo. Any helo.
I'll direct your attention to the standard IP layout on page 22 of the AS350 tech specs:
http://www.eurocopterusa.com/Product...d_as350_b2.pdf
Please write to Eurocopter and inform them that they've been installing the primary flight instruments on the wrong side of the aircraft.
As for your dissymmetry of lift theory, a quick estimation of the W&B shows what little effect that has. Assuming a 200lb pilot sitting about 20" from the centerline and that the airplane is otherwise fairly well balanced laterally, the sum of the moments is 4000 in-lbs. Given a typical weight of about 4000 lbs, it looks like you changed your lateral CG by about an inch. I don't have an A-Star flight manual, but a typical lateral CG limit is about 4", so you're nowhere close to any sort of control limit.
I'll direct your attention to the standard IP layout on page 22 of the AS350 tech specs:
http://www.eurocopterusa.com/Product...d_as350_b2.pdf
Please write to Eurocopter and inform them that they've been installing the primary flight instruments on the wrong side of the aircraft.
As for your dissymmetry of lift theory, a quick estimation of the W&B shows what little effect that has. Assuming a 200lb pilot sitting about 20" from the centerline and that the airplane is otherwise fairly well balanced laterally, the sum of the moments is 4000 in-lbs. Given a typical weight of about 4000 lbs, it looks like you changed your lateral CG by about an inch. I don't have an A-Star flight manual, but a typical lateral CG limit is about 4", so you're nowhere close to any sort of control limit.
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Can you tell me where it says I have to sit in an Astar on the right?
If disymetry of lift wasn't an issue why do you have trim?
Certainly I didn't intend to imply flight instruments in all aircaft determine where the pilot sits..I hope you don't either... a helo is typicaly center panel configured anyway....If I am flying IFR EMS, all instruments packed on the right, sure I would fly right...long line with a bubble on the left...sit left..
The ops, equipment, and how the aircraft is configured, my comfort level, will coelesce to determine where I fly in any aircraft..
On a long x-country, going fast, not a bad thing to ease that cyclic force by sitting on the opposite side of the roll depending on the helo your flying.....
Another issue is that sitting left side, you can take out the center collective so some passenger doesn't bump it...many do...
If disymetry of lift wasn't an issue why do you have trim?
Certainly I didn't intend to imply flight instruments in all aircaft determine where the pilot sits..I hope you don't either... a helo is typicaly center panel configured anyway....If I am flying IFR EMS, all instruments packed on the right, sure I would fly right...long line with a bubble on the left...sit left..
The ops, equipment, and how the aircraft is configured, my comfort level, will coelesce to determine where I fly in any aircraft..
On a long x-country, going fast, not a bad thing to ease that cyclic force by sitting on the opposite side of the roll depending on the helo your flying.....
Another issue is that sitting left side, you can take out the center collective so some passenger doesn't bump it...many do...
Last edited by Angels 60; 23rd May 2008 at 19:41.
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Well Angels, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but now I know you're full of it. The Astar IP is by no means the center stack variety:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/contrailsnw/160471777/
Back to the original topic, Keith, I did a little more searching of the ol' memory banks, and managed to dig out the connection between rotary engines and left hand traffic patterns. Specifically, it was the fact that for airplanes with a clockwise rotation of the prop (and hence engine), a right yaw would induce a downward pitching motion due to gyroscopic effects. So right turns, especially after takeoff, could get a new pilot into serious trouble if he wasn't prepared.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/contrailsnw/160471777/
Back to the original topic, Keith, I did a little more searching of the ol' memory banks, and managed to dig out the connection between rotary engines and left hand traffic patterns. Specifically, it was the fact that for airplanes with a clockwise rotation of the prop (and hence engine), a right yaw would induce a downward pitching motion due to gyroscopic effects. So right turns, especially after takeoff, could get a new pilot into serious trouble if he wasn't prepared.
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I'm not backpedalling. You can sit on any side you like. Just don't fool yourself that there's an aerodynamic reason for it.
I may not fly helos for a living, but I do have an aeorspace engineering degree and 10 years experience as a Flight Test Engineer for various companies including 7 years with rotary wing outfits. I can guarantee you that there's no technical reason for pilots to choose one side over the other except for the human factors reasons I've stated above.
By the way, does your Astar not have a trim / mag release system? That'd be much more effective in countering any control forces than changing seats.
I may not fly helos for a living, but I do have an aeorspace engineering degree and 10 years experience as a Flight Test Engineer for various companies including 7 years with rotary wing outfits. I can guarantee you that there's no technical reason for pilots to choose one side over the other except for the human factors reasons I've stated above.
By the way, does your Astar not have a trim / mag release system? That'd be much more effective in countering any control forces than changing seats.