Captain Sir - I have control.
Thread Starter
Captain Sir - I have control.
CRM books and allied papers make much of the responsibility of the second in command to advise the captain he is taking over control where it is warranted.
In particular if the captain deliberately presses on regardless at low altitude with a badly unstable approach. Or if he deliberately breaks the minima.
While there is no shortage of advice on the things the first officer must say before he attempts to take control from the captain, there is precious little guidance offered to what the first officer should do should his warnings be disregarded. Taking over control at a critically low altitude will certainly result in an arm-wrestling competition with the potential for a disaster. Few captains intent on pressing on regardless will take kindly to the No 2 attempting to take over and almost certainly the captain would be cross and firmly resist.
There is one action however that can almost guarantee a go-around by the captain - and that is the first officer reaching over and selecting the gear lever to up while simultaneously calling "Landing Gear Up - Go Around"
Desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures. Either way the second in command will be called to account for his actions and he must be prepared to wear the consequences. Therefore the gear up action is a last resort. Unless temporarily medically insane even the most culture driven captain will not deliberately land wheels-up just to make the point that real men don't go around.
Rather than inundate first officers with all the politically correct and warm and fuzzy words they must use in warning the captain that things are going dangerously pear-shaped on short final (see Garuda 737 accident report), it is about time the authors of such material cut to the chase and offer practical if indeed brutal advice on how to save the day. Keep in mind there are some out there that really do think real men should not go around.
In particular if the captain deliberately presses on regardless at low altitude with a badly unstable approach. Or if he deliberately breaks the minima.
While there is no shortage of advice on the things the first officer must say before he attempts to take control from the captain, there is precious little guidance offered to what the first officer should do should his warnings be disregarded. Taking over control at a critically low altitude will certainly result in an arm-wrestling competition with the potential for a disaster. Few captains intent on pressing on regardless will take kindly to the No 2 attempting to take over and almost certainly the captain would be cross and firmly resist.
There is one action however that can almost guarantee a go-around by the captain - and that is the first officer reaching over and selecting the gear lever to up while simultaneously calling "Landing Gear Up - Go Around"
Desperate times sometimes call for desperate measures. Either way the second in command will be called to account for his actions and he must be prepared to wear the consequences. Therefore the gear up action is a last resort. Unless temporarily medically insane even the most culture driven captain will not deliberately land wheels-up just to make the point that real men don't go around.
Rather than inundate first officers with all the politically correct and warm and fuzzy words they must use in warning the captain that things are going dangerously pear-shaped on short final (see Garuda 737 accident report), it is about time the authors of such material cut to the chase and offer practical if indeed brutal advice on how to save the day. Keep in mind there are some out there that really do think real men should not go around.
Well since this is human factors oriented and not just CRM.
It seems to me the more likely scenario is where the captain (PF) is no longer accepting input (frozen ignorance of the situation)). That's different from rejecting input (I don't agree and I am the commander).
With the former, the captain is unlikely to object until the situation is stabilized (after the go-around) and indeed may be a tad confused at first before he can effectively contribute again to CRM.
Of course if it's the latter, then some yelling (John Wayne movie "The High and Mighty") comes to mind.
It seems to me the more likely scenario is where the captain (PF) is no longer accepting input (frozen ignorance of the situation)). That's different from rejecting input (I don't agree and I am the commander).
With the former, the captain is unlikely to object until the situation is stabilized (after the go-around) and indeed may be a tad confused at first before he can effectively contribute again to CRM.
Of course if it's the latter, then some yelling (John Wayne movie "The High and Mighty") comes to mind.
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Can't agree with that Centaurus. By raising the gear, you will immediately set off the gear warning horn (gear not down with flap >15 in a Boeing). You will immediately create mayhem in the flight deck- horn, shouting, fighting control, probably the worst go-around in the western world, a new nickname and a new unemployed pilot! There are ways to try and solve the problem regarding discretion and tact, not taking a sledgehammer to the problem out of the blue at the worst possible time. The Captain will get reprimanded, the copilot will get canned.
The only way is to call: 'We are in an illegal situation, go-around please!.......I have control, go-around, flap15, positive climb, gear up' Do it in the right order, and correctly, or the consequences will be severe. But to just raise the gear? Ouch!
The only way is to call: 'We are in an illegal situation, go-around please!.......I have control, go-around, flap15, positive climb, gear up' Do it in the right order, and correctly, or the consequences will be severe. But to just raise the gear? Ouch!
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True story: aircraft not stabilized, First Officer informs Captain, Captain ignores First Officer, First Officer tries again to begin the process of going around by alerting Captain, Captain ignores First Officer.
F/O: "Tower, XYZ is going around."
Tower: "Roger XYZ, maintain runway, heading climb 3000."
Captain snaps out of it, goes around.
Think about this: it worked; no sticky business of taking control; Captain executed the go around and, importantly, the First Officer protected the Captain.
Look after each other out there...we're colleagues, not combatants. This isn't some dumb-ass Hollywood movie with Denzyl bloody Washington.
F/O: "Tower, XYZ is going around."
Tower: "Roger XYZ, maintain runway, heading climb 3000."
Captain snaps out of it, goes around.
Think about this: it worked; no sticky business of taking control; Captain executed the go around and, importantly, the First Officer protected the Captain.
Look after each other out there...we're colleagues, not combatants. This isn't some dumb-ass Hollywood movie with Denzyl bloody Washington.
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This sort of thread imprints in people 'that the copilot is always right!'. I never had to make that call as a copilot- a short discussion always did the job with mutual agreement. However, I have known a couple of occasions when a new copilot has called for a go-around, and my response having judged it OK (from the POV of vastly greater experience) has been 'don't be so bloody silly- look and learn!'. There followed in the post mortem a short discussion on how carefully one must assess the situation and not just call go around when it may not be actually necessary. When a proper discussion takes place and the co-pilot can voice his concerns, he has done enough to protect himself. But the danger is very inexperienced copilots will get the idea from this sort of thread that they are infallible and must be obeyed. Try that and get it wrong and they will be nursing a wounded ego!
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[QThere is one action however that can almost guarantee a go-around by the captain - and that is the first officer reaching over and selecting the gear lever to up while simultaneously calling "Landing Gear Up - Go Around"
UOTE][/quote]
My, oh my!! A disaster in the making.....you will soon be scraping the runway at low altitudes! With sufficient altitude a scary go around might be salvaged.
May I suggest, at least in modern aircrafts, hit the TOGA or Go levers first , Call " YOU MUST GO AROUND " and then select go around flaps and with positive rate of climb, then reach up to retract the gears.......if no response by then firmly state " I have control ". It will all be recorded on the CVR to save your tail.also don't forget to insist that the CVR recording be preserved by maintenance.trip the CVR cbs.
UOTE][/quote]
My, oh my!! A disaster in the making.....you will soon be scraping the runway at low altitudes! With sufficient altitude a scary go around might be salvaged.
May I suggest, at least in modern aircrafts, hit the TOGA or Go levers first , Call " YOU MUST GO AROUND " and then select go around flaps and with positive rate of climb, then reach up to retract the gears.......if no response by then firmly state " I have control ". It will all be recorded on the CVR to save your tail.also don't forget to insist that the CVR recording be preserved by maintenance.trip the CVR cbs.
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"not stabilized go around"
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
Thread Starter
If the Garuda 737 first officer had taken decisive action by selecting gear up after the captain had disregarded 12 GPWS warnings and his own first officer imploring him to go - around, it is highly probable that this dreadful accident would never have taken place. The point of this thread is that when the captain is fanatically intent on landing no matter what danger, the gear up option by the first officer is a last ditch action. By all means make the normal warning calls of "Please captain etc" but there has been no shortage regretfully of culture dispossessing common sense and a blazing wreck is the result.
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Wake Up Call
If all the GPWS warnings, including WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP don't wake up the captain, I seriously doubt whether the gear not down warning will catch his attention. Come to think of it, that warning might even be blanked by the priority scheme of warnings, which probably gives highest priority to the GPWS warnings.
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The problem is I have heard a few calls called wrong. So to take action like that really is a last resort, because when you do it, by God will there be some answering for it, and if the flight recorder shows you were wrong, you are out of a job! But agreed, sometimes it may be an absolute last resort. The great reluctance to do it is probably the copilots know if they do, and an accident is averted......no incident, Far Eastern face saving time.....'you are fired!'
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Well I had it happen to me. It is a very unpleasant situation certainly. The one thing that was said about my actions was that I should have taken control earlier. Unfortunately as a fairly new FO (less than 1 year jet at the time) I was reluctant.
Without going into too many details (I was PNF) the aircraft was getting higher and higher and ignoring my hinting the very senior pilot listened to me finally when I called Go around (high/fast A/C intercepted 6 degree glide which I called) a few times with increasing urgency. Subsequent botched G/A I had to take control from. Unpleasant. I ended up with 'fast hands' from me in the flight deck to sort it out, rather than having taken control earlier which would have been better all round.
Without going into too many details (I was PNF) the aircraft was getting higher and higher and ignoring my hinting the very senior pilot listened to me finally when I called Go around (high/fast A/C intercepted 6 degree glide which I called) a few times with increasing urgency. Subsequent botched G/A I had to take control from. Unpleasant. I ended up with 'fast hands' from me in the flight deck to sort it out, rather than having taken control earlier which would have been better all round.
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Under stress the first thing which we loose is our sense of hearing, so as the co-pilot/pnf/pm/pnh in these situations we need to recognize this and be ready to communicate appropriately.
Many years ago I had an RTO at medium speed (in a 747) as an FO with an elderly, very senior Captain, who basically had an attack of riggor mortis when the big event happened. While he was able to keep steering the aeroplane on the runway he was otherwise non responsive. It was only on my third verbalisation of "we need to stop" and putting my hand on his to close the thrust levers, that he came back to life and did his stuff. Notably the call which worked used his first name, which may have helped get my message through.
Now that I am older, and wiser (and a trainer), I am much better at recognising when people are overcome with pressure/workload. The first sign (and key signal) is that they will stop responding to verbal challanges or sounds (such as rad-alt calls of 1000 or 500 etc). As soon as they start to miss aural challanges then you need to recognise the risk and help them. Apart from offering solutions (eg, shall I seat the cabin crew down, would you like more track miles) the next best thing that can be done is to reinforce minimums. eg
"JOHN, if we are not stabilised by xxx then we will have to go around"
If you get to the point when a "recall procedure" is required then call for the drill and be ready to step in if required, eg "Go-around, set thrust" etc . (Just as you will do when you are a Captain).
Many years ago I had an RTO at medium speed (in a 747) as an FO with an elderly, very senior Captain, who basically had an attack of riggor mortis when the big event happened. While he was able to keep steering the aeroplane on the runway he was otherwise non responsive. It was only on my third verbalisation of "we need to stop" and putting my hand on his to close the thrust levers, that he came back to life and did his stuff. Notably the call which worked used his first name, which may have helped get my message through.
Now that I am older, and wiser (and a trainer), I am much better at recognising when people are overcome with pressure/workload. The first sign (and key signal) is that they will stop responding to verbal challanges or sounds (such as rad-alt calls of 1000 or 500 etc). As soon as they start to miss aural challanges then you need to recognise the risk and help them. Apart from offering solutions (eg, shall I seat the cabin crew down, would you like more track miles) the next best thing that can be done is to reinforce minimums. eg
"JOHN, if we are not stabilised by xxx then we will have to go around"
If you get to the point when a "recall procedure" is required then call for the drill and be ready to step in if required, eg "Go-around, set thrust" etc . (Just as you will do when you are a Captain).
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"not stabilized go around"
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
If the Garuda 737 first officer had taken decisive action by selecting gear up after the captain had disregarded 12 GPWS warnings and his own first officer imploring him to go - around, it is highly probable that this dreadful accident would never have taken place. The point of this thread is that when the captain is fanatically intent on landing no matter what danger, the gear up option by the first officer is a last ditch action. By all means make the normal warning calls of "Please captain etc" but there has been no shortage regretfully of culture dispossessing common sense and a blazing wreck is the result.
But yes, pull up the landing gear, you gotta make sure it'll snap the PF out of it. Previous events indicate that the first officer screaming his head off "NOT STABILIZED, MY CONTROLS, GOING AROUND" has been enough to snap the captain out of it and he reactively took his hands and feet off the controls and throttle. That happened 2x to the same F/O if I remember correctly.
PK-KAR
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Some food for thought!
Thought I have seen this great post somewhere.....found it and here it is :
Kudos to this humble gentleman! IT SURELY takes quite a bit for a skipper to own up to this.
OKhalsa
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Captain's landing in marginal weather? Well, my present and past airlines practise that. However, there were cases where the humble eff oh did a better job.
Years ago in another life flying the old A300 B4 into old Kai Tak at the onset of a typhoon. X-Winds were within limits but very gusty. After the checker board, we were turning beautifully for a textbook gusty X-W landing when a mighty gust turned everything pear shaped! The wings went wiggy waggy, the concentration and focus throughout the whole IGS 13 approach was so intense that the skipper ended up with tunnel vision and keep struggling to salvage the landing. The F/E was pretty quiet; the young F/O just grunted " GO A... " and pressed the Go levers! In a daze the skipper and F/O struggled together for a split second before, unbelievably, the skipper shouted " you have control " and the young f/o took it around. The skipper , ashen faced, with shaking knees and squeaky voiced asked the f/o to fly to TPE. Since we had plenty of fuel ( no problem with 8 extra tons ), the young f/o proposed another try. Skipper agreed with f/o flying..well f/o brought it down beautifully on the IGS to an equally beautiful landing. Later we celebrated at the bicycle bar!
The skipper was : YOURS truly. The F/O... well he has moved on to become a great skipper. The F/E; he probably learnt a lot that day and too took up flying as f/o and is now a junior skipper!
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Captain's landing in marginal weather? Well, my present and past airlines practise that. However, there were cases where the humble eff oh did a better job.
Years ago in another life flying the old A300 B4 into old Kai Tak at the onset of a typhoon. X-Winds were within limits but very gusty. After the checker board, we were turning beautifully for a textbook gusty X-W landing when a mighty gust turned everything pear shaped! The wings went wiggy waggy, the concentration and focus throughout the whole IGS 13 approach was so intense that the skipper ended up with tunnel vision and keep struggling to salvage the landing. The F/E was pretty quiet; the young F/O just grunted " GO A... " and pressed the Go levers! In a daze the skipper and F/O struggled together for a split second before, unbelievably, the skipper shouted " you have control " and the young f/o took it around. The skipper , ashen faced, with shaking knees and squeaky voiced asked the f/o to fly to TPE. Since we had plenty of fuel ( no problem with 8 extra tons ), the young f/o proposed another try. Skipper agreed with f/o flying..well f/o brought it down beautifully on the IGS to an equally beautiful landing. Later we celebrated at the bicycle bar!
The skipper was : YOURS truly. The F/O... well he has moved on to become a great skipper. The F/E; he probably learnt a lot that day and too took up flying as f/o and is now a junior skipper!
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For the go-around call to be made at 500 Radio Altitude, it would imply that you have had a precision approach terrain chart drawn up for that approach and examined it. There are several approaches where 500 RA is relatively meaningless in terms of being 500 feet above threshold (or touchdown zone) elevation. Please remember that very very few runways are ever surveyed for the PATC which is a great shame as radioaltimeters can be used to very beneficial effect with some ALAR procedures.
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