Captain Sir - I have control.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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All I can add to some excellent posts in here is that if I have stuffed it up that badly and appear to be seriously out of the loop, please drop the 'Sir'. As 737Jock said don't be afraid to call, lads and lassies, and make it positive. I may have to beat you round the head downwind
(oh, what fun!) but more importantly, we might just not have that 'big event'.
(oh, what fun!) but more importantly, we might just not have that 'big event'.
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Chaps, we haven't got enough fuel for a spurious call of go-around because a highly inexperienced co-pilot feels it's over the edge! As far as I am concerned, it takes 2 'Nays' to go-around, not just one without a darn good reason being shown! The answer may well be 'Don't be so bloody silly lad!'. I trust my judgement more at 20,000 hours than some green laddie at 600 hours!
$.02 from the retired backseat watcher
I have seen both go on (Capt or the F/O making mistakes) and what always seemed to make the most sense was the Capt stating that they have seen the deviation (airspeed, descent rate, etc) and are correcting for it. No response, something needs to be done, and the discusion at the hotel later.
But I agree with the topic of the thread, there is not always a SOP on what to do when SOP breaks down.
But I agree with the topic of the thread, there is not always a SOP on what to do when SOP breaks down.
Thread Starter
ust accept that your inexperienced FO, needs to get comfortable
Onepercenter,
Theres nothing against high time pilots, just the realisation that just because you have loads of hours doesn't mean you cannot be wrong. If a f/o questions a call, he should be able to explain his course of action both at the time and to the chief pilot afterwards. If this scenario is true he would not have been able to do that.
Edited: as not quite fast enough before 1%er banned...must be some kind of record.
Theres nothing against high time pilots, just the realisation that just because you have loads of hours doesn't mean you cannot be wrong. If a f/o questions a call, he should be able to explain his course of action both at the time and to the chief pilot afterwards. If this scenario is true he would not have been able to do that.
Edited: as not quite fast enough before 1%er banned...must be some kind of record.
Last edited by Right Way Up; 27th May 2008 at 07:53.
Centaurus, your quote:-
Made me laugh. You really think the first mate on some ships nowadays is experienced? I know you probably meant it tongue in cheek but I have sailed with 24yr old First Mates and I can tell you they might know the answers to the questions but have very little real world experience.
And it's not just the deck side you need to worry about. Have a look at the engine room guys too. A huge shortage of experienc nowadays. why? because the industry didnt recruit for a long time and is now suddenly short. Haven't we heard this before somewhere?
Hang on a second here. Passengers read these pages and if they see the words "inexperienced first officers" they are entitled to think what the hell are inexperienced second in command persons are doing on a plane. All the advertisements I see in aviation mags show pilots with lots of gold stripes. Are you saying these guys are inexperienced? I'm outta here until you get two very experienced pilots up front or else I'm going by ships where the First Mate is experienced and not just a kid
And it's not just the deck side you need to worry about. Have a look at the engine room guys too. A huge shortage of experienc nowadays. why? because the industry didnt recruit for a long time and is now suddenly short. Haven't we heard this before somewhere?
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I've seen this in other fields: Hire inexperienced guys, so we don't have to pay them much, we can teach them what to do, and get away without needing experience. They will do what we want, little marshmellows that just want to fly and can be controlled.In many proffessions, this is true. You don't need a janitor with 20 years of experience to mop a floor...also, obsolete knowledge is giving way to computers and technology. FEs and guys that really knew how to navigate and handfly, going the way of the FMS, EFIS, and GPS. So flash forward to the Sims and flight instructors have coined a term...'Childrem of the Magenta'.....pilots that have never handflown, no situational awareness, no concept of compass turns, partial panel, or dead reckonking. Situational awareness: Look for the little plane on the moving map, that's where you are.Now that is who is flying a jumbo jet these days? I would have expected more.The equipment is so reliable these days, that expecting anything extra ordinary out of these pilots, like dealing with a real tire failure, engine failure ect is so remote that even the insurance companies buy off on it, as long as the insurance premiums are high enough, and they make a profit. So now we have kids hiring kids, or chief pilots who really just don't care anymore hiring for a happy work environment, CRM being more important then actual safety...and people not making waves, doing what they are told what to do...At the end of the day, we know that a 600 FO flying a jumbo jet is unacceptable, the captains know it, the airlines know it, the insurance company cringes at the thought of it...but everyone is making a buck..
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I am in complete agreement with Centaurus. When you’ve tried everything else and the circumstances continue to worsen, your options become less and less. Making the right decision is not difficult. What is difficult is making the wrong decision. I, for one, consider the outcome after having made the wrong decision given both options.
Wrong Decision Number 1: It really is a bad approach at first, and, while the F/O thinks things are going from bad to worse, the steely-eyed Captain is closing in on the localizer and glide slope as the airspeed is increasing back to the appropriate reference speed. The F/O reaches over and raises the landing gear lever and announces “Go Around.” The steely-eyed Captain really has little choice but to go around. After landing and debriefing the appropriate company personnel, the F/O finds himself cleaning out his locker.
Wrong Decision Number 2: It really is a bad approach at first, and, while the F/O thinks the steely-eyed Captain is going to close in on the localizer and glide slope as the airspeed is decreasing further below the appropriate reference speed, things really are going from bad to worse. The F/O thinks about reaching over to raise the landing gear lever and announcing “Go Around,” but decides to keep his thoughts to himself. The steely-eyed Captain continues his deteriorating approach. After the crash, the appropriate company personnel find themselves cleaning out the F/O’s locker to send the contents to his widow.
I don’t know ‘bout you guys, but I know which wrong decision I’d rather make.
Wrong Decision Number 1: It really is a bad approach at first, and, while the F/O thinks things are going from bad to worse, the steely-eyed Captain is closing in on the localizer and glide slope as the airspeed is increasing back to the appropriate reference speed. The F/O reaches over and raises the landing gear lever and announces “Go Around.” The steely-eyed Captain really has little choice but to go around. After landing and debriefing the appropriate company personnel, the F/O finds himself cleaning out his locker.
Wrong Decision Number 2: It really is a bad approach at first, and, while the F/O thinks the steely-eyed Captain is going to close in on the localizer and glide slope as the airspeed is decreasing further below the appropriate reference speed, things really are going from bad to worse. The F/O thinks about reaching over to raise the landing gear lever and announcing “Go Around,” but decides to keep his thoughts to himself. The steely-eyed Captain continues his deteriorating approach. After the crash, the appropriate company personnel find themselves cleaning out the F/O’s locker to send the contents to his widow.
I don’t know ‘bout you guys, but I know which wrong decision I’d rather make.
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You don't need a janitor with 20 years of experience to mop a floor
Obsolete knowledge is giving way to computers and technology.
pilots that have never handflown, no situational awareness, no concept of compass turns, partial panel, or dead reckonking.
Now that is who is flying a jumbo jet these days?
At the end of the day, we know that a 600 FO flying a jumbo jet is unacceptable, the captains know it, the airlines know it, the insurance company cringes at the thought of it...but everyone is making a buck.
Oh hang on... Ssg v7.0 is now banned... let's see if v8.0 will provide more "answers"...
-----
AirRabbit,
One accident March last year almost turned out to be your "Wrong Decision Number 2".
-KAR
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AirRabbit,
One accident March last year almost turned out to be your "Wrong Decision Number 2".
One accident March last year almost turned out to be your "Wrong Decision Number 2".
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In our outfit we use the Flight Safety Foundation's ALAR checklist as an aid to the approach briefing. At the end, printed in block capitals, is
"IT'S OK TO GO-AROUND".
Believe it or not, the company actually encourages us to do just that. Our stabilised altitude is 1000ft with 800ft as the visual one. I don't know what our ratio of continued approaches to go-arounds is but I'd be prepared to bet that we have a higher than usual number of G/As. Most of the Captains do actually encourage the F/O to call G/A if they're not happy with the approach. Of course there are those who'll never do that and they're the ones who'll have the incident/accident some day. And just for the record, we have 200 hr F/Os straight from flight school on the 'bus and they're outstanding! Short of experience yes but good guys who just want to learn. It's our job to ensure that they learn the right things.
Of course it's a tough call for a young F/O and all the CRM courses in the world cant buy experience. However, if those thrust levers are pushed to TOGA (or the TOGA button is pushed on the Boeings) there's not a lot the Capt can do about it except to discuss it afterwards. As a Capt I'd prefer he did that even when he might be a bit premature, than do nothing when he should have! He might just save my job and my neck. It's up to every Capt to create the atmosphere on the flight deck that encourages the F/O to speak (and act) up when things are not according to plan.
To the 20,000 hr guy who takes the opposite view I say I know where you're coming from but as someone else said which "wrong decision" would you prefer the F/O to make? I know I can screw up just a fast as the next guy but I hope I'm not so proud that I'd ignore a genuine call - no matter how "wrong" I might think it is. I'd much prefer to discuss it afterwards in the bar than in the enquiry!!!
"IT'S OK TO GO-AROUND".
Believe it or not, the company actually encourages us to do just that. Our stabilised altitude is 1000ft with 800ft as the visual one. I don't know what our ratio of continued approaches to go-arounds is but I'd be prepared to bet that we have a higher than usual number of G/As. Most of the Captains do actually encourage the F/O to call G/A if they're not happy with the approach. Of course there are those who'll never do that and they're the ones who'll have the incident/accident some day. And just for the record, we have 200 hr F/Os straight from flight school on the 'bus and they're outstanding! Short of experience yes but good guys who just want to learn. It's our job to ensure that they learn the right things.
Of course it's a tough call for a young F/O and all the CRM courses in the world cant buy experience. However, if those thrust levers are pushed to TOGA (or the TOGA button is pushed on the Boeings) there's not a lot the Capt can do about it except to discuss it afterwards. As a Capt I'd prefer he did that even when he might be a bit premature, than do nothing when he should have! He might just save my job and my neck. It's up to every Capt to create the atmosphere on the flight deck that encourages the F/O to speak (and act) up when things are not according to plan.
To the 20,000 hr guy who takes the opposite view I say I know where you're coming from but as someone else said which "wrong decision" would you prefer the F/O to make? I know I can screw up just a fast as the next guy but I hope I'm not so proud that I'd ignore a genuine call - no matter how "wrong" I might think it is. I'd much prefer to discuss it afterwards in the bar than in the enquiry!!!
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"not stabilized go around"
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
"negative we continue"
"I say again not stabilized go around"
"negative"
"xxx twr abc123 going around"
Still no response?.....
I see no reason why not to reach for the gear handle at that point?
A situation very similar to this has happened very recently in Europe so don't think it can not happen.
Be sure to differentiate between actual imminent danger and violated standards. There IS always a margin between the two, often times a big one.
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To the 20,000 hr guy who takes the opposite view I say I know where you're coming from but as someone else said which "wrong decision" would you prefer the F/O to make? I know I can screw up just a fast as the next guy but I hope I'm not so proud that I'd ignore a genuine call - no matter how "wrong" I might think it is. I'd much prefer to discuss it afterwards in the bar than in the enquiry!!!
Having flown (& doing so now) with 200hr FOs, some are very good, some are not...As a FO, I flew with some 20,000 hr CPTs, some were very good, some were not.
So, you cannot generalise. The minute you profess to be perfect is the time you should go & get another job!
Remember, to err is to be human & NONE of us is infallible.That is one of the reasons they put two pilots (or more) on the flight deck. Yes, there has to be a cross cockpit gradient, BUT the other guy should not be frightened to speak up. (Teneriffe North springs to mind.)
As few previous posters have mentioned, I would much prefer the odd spurious go-around (part of the learning curve, we all had to make)as "we" may have missed something, rather than something much worse!
Someone famous once said.. "Better to late in this world than early in the next"
Food for thought?
