Would you abort after V1?
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Hmm!. Isn't there something about 'walking like a duck and talking like a duck'......?
http://www.pprune.org/forums/safety-...ml#post4226822
Nice to know you are watching, Mr Mod
http://www.pprune.org/forums/safety-...ml#post4226822
Nice to know you are watching, Mr Mod
Moderator
While I may have (and am perfectly entitled to) my view on the matter .. the mod role ought not to be coloured by presumption and prejudice .. really we are here to facilitate, not rule.
Hence I give a lot of rope .. just that some folks use it up quicker than t'others...
Hence I give a lot of rope .. just that some folks use it up quicker than t'others...
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I find it interesting that an airline op manual will tell a pilot to fly, when in fact the plane may not fly...in general and biz aviation, it's fairly clear when a plane won't fly...but evidentely in the airlines when you hit a certain speed, that seems to magicaly guarantee that a plane will fly around the patch...interesting...Also since general aviation doesn't purposely burn up 80% of our runways using flex/derate on purpose...many times we could find ourselves past V1 with 8000 ft of runway left..on fire...why fight a fire up in the air, in the soup, trying to fly a SID to get over those mountains, when all you have to do is pull the power back, tap the brakes, and hit the bottles?I am glad I have the discretion in my flight dept......rather then a book under the seats telling me what to do...
SSg has single handedly managed to turn what's long been an excellent technical forum into a worthless laughing stock because of posts just such as this, as well as each of the threads he's ruined just to get his little teenage jollies.
Certainly another persona to put on the ignore list, until it too gets banned in a day or so.
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Post V1, any number of things can happen to a plane to make it un-flyable...to persist in the concept that all planes fly after V1, no matter what is quite silly....None the less, I have been admonished for stopping a plane on the runway (sim) in a post V1 cut, plenty of runway, but got the 'debate' from the sim instructor. I simply reply that in the real world, saving lives is what it's about. On that note, I find it funny, that the guys that fly the plane off in the sim, only to hit that mountain, because as they were fighting the fire, they forgot to make the turn...simply got to do it over again...I like how another poster put it...' with a burning lake of lava at the end, using up 90% of my runway for balanced field, sure, it's a go after V1...but with another 5000 ft left, a 1000 ft stopway at the end, and a thousand miles of Nebraska corn fields beyond, why would I fly a burning wreck up through the air and become a test pilot with a planeload of people?'
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FE Hoppy...If balanced field is 5000ft and the runway is 10000 ft, I am not being a test pilot...by stopping post V1, Pre VR, braking distances are easy to calculate...Flying a plane that just clipped a fuel truck, got hit by an RPG, had a tire go through the fuel tank, just lost one side of slats and flaps from the car that it ran over, is being a test pilot.....
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Hoppy, I put on the brakes the same way 6 billion people do every day when driving thier cars...I look out side, and decide if I have enough pavement to stop or not...how do you know if your plane will accelarate to VR with those busted tires with in the given runway distance?...do you have the new calcs for that?.
Hoppy “You only become a test pilot when you operate an aircraft outside of its scheduled performance”.
Nope,
but I agree that you should not stop above V1.
MushinPilot43 “… is being a test pilot.....” Definitely not!
t.p’s avoid doing stupid things. The point is that the circumstances which you ‘dream-up’ are extremely unlikely to occur, and then not exactly at the critical time of an RTO ‘decision’. The basis of safety in our industry is probability, minimising risk by dealing with known or foreseeable hazards in the safest way. The definition of foreseeable in certification involves probability; about 10e-6 IIRC.
The weakest component in an RTO (and in most other operations) is the human element. The hypothesising of extreme scenarios does little to strengthen well proven procedures and guidance at critical time.
Safety is not absolute, it is not perfect, and we strive to improve our standards. But in seeking to cover all extremes there is a risk that you will introduce opportunity for error (situation assessment, judgement), or with situation/procedural complexity you change established habits formed in training and exacerbate an already hazardous situation.
Remember that ‘we are what we think’ - we do what we think, thus those with hazardous thoughts (risk taking) have no place in the industry.
The stop/go decision should be one of the easier clear-cut decisions in aviation.
The process normally starts with a trigger event (before V1), where the situation has to be assessed against predetermined parameters or conditions (SOPs). You should not have to consider the nature of the condition – tire, surge, or mentally debate the severity or effect; this is done before flight and covered by procedure and training detailing how they might be identified etc, even if relevant.
Where the aircraft is not flyable (normally established after V1), then there isn’t a go decision; you will stop sometime, all you can hope to do is minimise the damage. It will not be an RTO, but it will be an accident, as will in all probability, be an RTO after V1.
Nope,
but I agree that you should not stop above V1.MushinPilot43 “… is being a test pilot.....” Definitely not!
t.p’s avoid doing stupid things. The point is that the circumstances which you ‘dream-up’ are extremely unlikely to occur, and then not exactly at the critical time of an RTO ‘decision’. The basis of safety in our industry is probability, minimising risk by dealing with known or foreseeable hazards in the safest way. The definition of foreseeable in certification involves probability; about 10e-6 IIRC.The weakest component in an RTO (and in most other operations) is the human element. The hypothesising of extreme scenarios does little to strengthen well proven procedures and guidance at critical time.
Safety is not absolute, it is not perfect, and we strive to improve our standards. But in seeking to cover all extremes there is a risk that you will introduce opportunity for error (situation assessment, judgement), or with situation/procedural complexity you change established habits formed in training and exacerbate an already hazardous situation.
Remember that ‘we are what we think’ - we do what we think, thus those with hazardous thoughts (risk taking) have no place in the industry.
The stop/go decision should be one of the easier clear-cut decisions in aviation.
The process normally starts with a trigger event (before V1), where the situation has to be assessed against predetermined parameters or conditions (SOPs). You should not have to consider the nature of the condition – tire, surge, or mentally debate the severity or effect; this is done before flight and covered by procedure and training detailing how they might be identified etc, even if relevant.
Where the aircraft is not flyable (normally established after V1), then there isn’t a go decision; you will stop sometime, all you can hope to do is minimise the damage. It will not be an RTO, but it will be an accident, as will in all probability, be an RTO after V1.
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FE Hoppy...If balanced field is 5000ft and the runway is 10000 ft, I am not being a test pilot...by stopping post V1, Pre VR, braking distances are easy to calculate...Flying a plane that just clipped a fuel truck, got hit by an RPG, had a tire go through the fuel tank, just lost one side of slats and flaps from the car that it ran over, is being a test pilot.....
You're the same guy who posts under all the other names, gets called out, and eventually banned, with the same stupid agenda, as always. Mushinpilot43 is ssg is tankdriver is...same banned poster under a different login. Again. Nothing to see here but stupidity in action, folks.
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At balanced field length you legally must abort before V1 or go past V1 to be safe. If you don't do that you are not legal. However if logic says I have extra runway today and I have leeway then think about what is more important, being legal, or being safe. I have briefed many departures with cliffs at the end of the runway differently than departing with an obstacle. My most critical airport was Tegucigalpa, Honduras. It had a 4 ft fence and a 70 ft drop off at the end. How would you like to overshoot an abort on that short runway? Taca just did a demo on that one on landing.
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Oh, lookee. No Mushin to respond (banned, of course), but here is Fisssle, suddenly having appeared...with one post. One name disappears, next appears, brand new poster, with the same story. Imagine that.
Such a surprise.
Such a surprise.
I'm starting a new thread-as this one may have run its course
"would you abort after V2?---I'm sure I'll get plenty of rational responses
---well time to practice my Vmc/stall/spins in the face of of TS---with a sick pax so I have a reason under 91.3 para c.---to go below minimums on an IAP
"would you abort after V2?---I'm sure I'll get plenty of rational responses
---well time to practice my Vmc/stall/spins in the face of of TS---with a sick pax so I have a reason under 91.3 para c.---to go below minimums on an IAP
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So SSG #5 (or 6 by now), the recent overrun in BRU is apparently an abort after V1, (Only a preliminary report, not the final) and the outcome while not fatal, may have been much worse with pax on board.
