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Pilot Incap at 80/100 - what to do?

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Pilot Incap at 80/100 - what to do?

Old 13th May 2008, 17:21
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Pilot Incap at 80/100 - what to do?

I thought this was fairly clear cut but I have discovered a differing opinion and the ops manuals and FTCM's are both rather vague.

Here is the scenario: Captain PF, at the 80/100 knots call there is no response. What should the FO do? Both for the Boeing and Airbus fleets.

Company restrictions are that only the Captain decides to stop and does it himself, FO can only alert him/her to what he/she sees.

Screwballs
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Old 13th May 2008, 17:30
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Dog Tired
 
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You repeat the SOP call and, if there's still no response, you stop the aircraft - provided you have been trained to close the thrust levers and apply the brakes.

Or, you could take control, fly off (single crew) and continue the flight.

Are you serious?
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Old 13th May 2008, 17:41
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In the absence of the commander,the first officer takes command.STOP for heavens sakes!!!!!!
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Old 13th May 2008, 17:46
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"80/100 knots call"

So that is actually two unanswered "calls" now.............and you and your pax are still accelerating to a fiery oblivion in the overshoot...........is this a secret CRM session??

I think after no response at 80 a more robust form of communication would be the first choice!
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Old 13th May 2008, 18:04
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ssg
 
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Well I will repeat...

Here are the popular choices, based on past experience:

- Do nothing, and let the captain crash the plane
- Do something, and you crash the plane
- Start reading your SOPS manual
- Call OPS, ask them what to do
- Ask the stewardess to find a capt deadheading in back

----------------------------------

Forget the call outs...did you see the capt slump over?

The scary part about this, is that most of you opt for this guy to stop...in reality, how many of these airliners are overloaded, don't have balanced fiield numbers, and the capt knew he HAD to go...didn't tell anyone ofcourse....

Don't believe me? Go out today to the airport and see plane after plane use up 80% -90% of the runway just to rotate.

This kills me...one poster: 'you can stop the aircraft, provided your trained to do so'

So when does the FO, not get ' pull the levers back and put your feet on the brakes training'? No joke, but are FOs that weak these days...are airlines literaly putting in people that can't stop a plane? Or rotate it and get around the pattern?

This has got to be a wind up, and not for real....

But it's good for laugh.....
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Old 13th May 2008, 20:43
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I see from the different responses that it seems there is not such an obvious answer to this question. A look through the FCTM of both types does not cover it and neither does the ops manual.

Thanks everyone for your responses, it's good to have a think about these not so clear cut areas somtimes.

Screwballs
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Old 13th May 2008, 20:53
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If the CA doesn't respond to the 100knot call, speak up! The geezer probably has his hearing aid turned down.
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Old 13th May 2008, 21:02
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I'll grant I only fly little cessnas (well, pipers too, and even the odd other light thing, but...)

Surely that's the answer by definition: if, when you take over, v<v1 - abort. if v>v1 - keep going.

I seem to have the idea from somewhere that v1 is calculated with reference to AUW, rwy length, density alt and other such stuff before it's needed?
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Old 13th May 2008, 21:20
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As posted by monkeyflight:

Just imagine:
"100"
(no response)
"110"
(still no response)
you glance over to your left and see the old guy collapsed in his seat...
Now you're at 120.
By the time you have made your decision to reject you're gonna be very close to decision speed if not already past it, especially on the small iron (A320/737 and the likes) Things happen so fast during an RTO that I wouldn't want to do it as a single pilot show on a machine and with procedures designed for two.

for me that would mean:
Hand on the thrust levers, a clear "I have control!" and "continue", fly a nice radar vectored pattern for the ILS to have the whole length of the runway in front you to land on.
The difference is, once you're airborne you've got TIME!

On the other hand, 4000m dry RWY, VCTS, mountains and a light A319 would get me tinking again.
An excellent reply and these are my thoughts exactly.

One of the good things about being a professional pilot is having a good old discussion about these sorts of things.

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Old 13th May 2008, 22:06
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I am a F/O in a company where I cannot all Reject!!! (737) Insane .
Still I happen to think that Monkeyflight's idea is a good one, I ould add to it to use the automatics as much as posible even a twin A/P Approach and Autoland. Safety is paramount.
Also give time for ATC to sort out a tug etc... as once you stop you are not going anywhere
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Old 13th May 2008, 22:17
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You only have a few short moments to work it out---and a few less seconds thereafter to know if you made the right choice---You gotta get right
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Old 13th May 2008, 22:19
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D&M
 
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I'd never reject...

"I have control", priority push-button, continue with take-off, assess situation in the air and then make a decision... most likely to return, depending on what kind of Captain Incap we're talking about.
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Old 13th May 2008, 22:28
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If he's still on the mobile to his wife/girlfriend/builder/lawyer, or deep in the Times crossword, then I'll leave him be.

Other than that, lean close to the CVR and yell "Captain!!! What are you doing???"
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Old 13th May 2008, 22:43
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Screwballs:- if you ever want to make Captain, you will have to learn to make decisions, so make one and STOP! Don't think that you will be better off getting airborne and sorting it out; this is a good time to use your initiative and do the "safe thing". The workload will be so much easier for you.
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Old 13th May 2008, 22:45
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Surely that's the answer by definition: if, when you take over, v<v1 - abort. if v>v1 - keep going.
Many firms, my own included, subdivide the region below V1 into considerations based on what's going on. A general rule, used by us and many others, is any malfunction or problem up to 80 knots will be considered for a rejected takeoff, but above that speed, only for engine fire, engine failure, loss of directional control, or an outward opening door. So it's not quite so simple as rejecting for anything less than V1.

Incapacitation can take many forms. I've had a lack of response due to an ICS failure, lack of response due to me choking on an errant popcorn kernel. That's why there's a second challenge. On two occasions in my career I've had reason to take control from the other pilot, only one on a takeoff, and in that case I didn't actually take control. It was in a small transport category airplane, a Learjet, and involved a non-responsive pilot during a takeoff.

In that case, I was first officer, and in the right seat (I say that because in corporate and charter operations, the F/O may be in either seat, depending on the company policy and practice). The captain was new, inexperienced, and a direct hire captain. He had a track record of poor decisions and problems with other crews, each of whom had reported him to the chief pilot. In this case, I was assigned to fly with him because I was the most experienced F/O at the time.

We flew into LAX, and he was visibly nervous, intimidated by the size and business of the airport. When we departed, he was very hesitant in taxiing, seemed to be confused. On the takeoff roll we developed a door open light. It was relatively early in the takeoff, and I loudly announced the problem, pointed to the annunciator, and stated "Door light, reject, reject, reject." per the company SOP. No response. I stated again, and when I looked over at him, he was hunkered down, had a death grip on the yoke, one on the thrust levers, and showed no signs of doing anything but being intensely focused on taking off.

I knew a false door signal wasn't unheard of, and visually checked the door over my shoulder, and noted the handle positions. I determined that while clearly the door was closed, the indication didn't warrant trying to wrestle the airplane away from the captain who was off in la-la land and still apparently scared out of his whits. He wasn't unconscious, but more catatonic, overwhelmed from the look of it. I quickly determined a high speed rejected takeoff coupled with attempting to take control would do more harm than good.

When the captain didn't respond to further calls, but did rotate, I took care of gear and flaps. After we were cleaned up I tackled the checlist myself and then loudly anounced "You ARE aware we have a door light, correct?" He snapped out of it, and had a fit, stating that we needed to turn around, declare an emergency, and land the other way. He nearly had a panic attack. I left him physically manipulating the controls, but took control from that point on, telling him what to do, and talking him through the remainder of the trip.

When we got home I shared the experience with the Chief Pilot, who had grown to be good friends with that captain, and didn't want to hear it. I added my name to the list of pilots who wouldn't fly with him again, making it a full house; nobody would fly with that captain...and for the remainder of his time they called him a captain, and he was paid as a captain, but flew only with the chief pilot and only in the capacity of first officer.

I don't think the call is as simple as taking the airplane away, SOP notwithstanding. One must look at the circumstances and make the call.
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Old 14th May 2008, 00:04
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Screwballs:- if you ever want to make Captain, you will have to learn to make decisions, so make one and STOP! Don't think that you will be better off getting airborne and sorting it out; this is a good time to use your initiative and do the "safe thing". The workload will be so much easier for you.
I seriously wonder if a blanket STOP decision is the right one, surely it is circumstantial as stated in the many posts above? Runway length, Density Alt, loading etc.

I suggest the key is to make a decision, based on the circumstances - and work it through. Indecision is what will make an accident out of an incident.

And small caveat on that comment is to obviously make the right decision!
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Old 14th May 2008, 01:05
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ssg
 
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737....

Re-read my post...if V1 or VR are predicated on 'BS' numbers then the decision to go or not go, should have happend about 3000 feet ago...

Again, go to your local airport, watch an airliner burn up 80-90% of the runway to get to VR and try to convince yourself that right before V1 or VR he would have had enough runway to stop.

Still not convinced...watch the Concorde video and ask yourself why it couldn't climb on half it's engines, if not 3/4.

Anyone in here hear of the 60/40 rule?
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Old 14th May 2008, 01:34
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watch the Concorde video and ask yourself why it couldn't climb on half it's engines, if not 3/4.
It could climb quite adequately on 3/4 of it's engines. It couldn't climb on half it's engines and with the gear stuck down, which is probably the case for most heavy four engined jets.
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Old 14th May 2008, 09:25
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Try a derate and assumed method.

We have a derate and use the assumed temp reduction method. That is probably why you are seeing aircraft use 70 to 90% of the runway.

It does not detract from the fact that the DECISION SPEED at which you must decide to go or stop. it has nothing to do with how long the runway is as those calculations have already been made.

I have used 4500' on a 6500' runway and 8000' on a 10500' runway the power produced on those occasions was a little different due to the different derate but the principle is the same.
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Old 14th May 2008, 09:53
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Re-read my post...if V1 or VR are predicated on 'BS' numbers then the decision to go or not go, should have happend about 3000 feet ago...

Again, go to your local airport, watch an airliner burn up 80-90% of the runway to get to VR and try to convince yourself that right before V1 or VR he would have had enough runway to stop.

Still not convinced...watch the Concorde video and ask yourself why it couldn't climb on half it's engines, if not 3/4.

Anyone in here hear of the 60/40 rule?
If V1<Vr there is no requirement and no need to be able to stop at Vr, so I don't understand your point.

If using balanced field, and reduced thrust/FLEX why fiddle the figures ?? You still have the performance to take more weight out of the field ??
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