Packs in Cruise
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: A little leaky boat
I say again for those who didn't get it the first time.
On my current aircraft there are no restrictions on single pack operation. None, zip, zilch, nada.
It's interesting to see all the indignation and accusations coming from people, without anyone even knowing what type of aircraft or operation I am talking about.
Jumping to conclusions or knee-jerk reactions from people who should know better.
On my current aircraft there are no restrictions on single pack operation. None, zip, zilch, nada.
It's interesting to see all the indignation and accusations coming from people, without anyone even knowing what type of aircraft or operation I am talking about.
Jumping to conclusions or knee-jerk reactions from people who should know better.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 805
Likes: 0
From: U.K.
Well, on my little J31s we use both packs all the time. There are however no checks that both packs are working - either the cabin maintains the correct altitude or it doesn't. Thus in the cruise, I used to slowly reduce the flow from one of the packs and watch the cabin altitude instrumentation. As one pack is capapble of maintaining the correct cabin altitude, I expected to see no change in this. With the correct cabin altitude maintained with one pack turned off, I slowly re-established the flow and then repeated the exercise on the other. From time to time, this would cause the cabin altitude to start to climb. The flow was thus restored immediately, and he failed pack put U/S at the end of the flight.
I found it comforting to know that both my packs were working - thus reducing the passenger discomfort which would otherwise ensue if the only working pack failed unexpectedly in flight!
P.P.
I found it comforting to know that both my packs were working - thus reducing the passenger discomfort which would otherwise ensue if the only working pack failed unexpectedly in flight!
P.P.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
MD 11 Dc10 have 3 packs,the MD11 all controlled by the ESC,ESC decides what pack runs(generally 3 ,unless in manual) ,after recieving various inputs from sensors,amount of pax etc. DC10 has a panel operator who does the job in place of the ESC,on frieghters he usually just runs 2 packs.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 2,627
Likes: 2
From: UTC +8
The number of operating packs in cruise has more to do with revenue passengers' comfort than about saving fuel!
With 400+ breathing, heat generating pax in the cabin it's more about cabin air exchange rate [fresh air flow] than it would be, for example, when flying boxes in a freighter with only crew.
. . . Or will you be explaining to First Class passengers who fork over $4000 each for a seat why the cabin feels stuffy? . . . Because your company wants you to reduce cabin air flow to save fuel...?
With 400+ breathing, heat generating pax in the cabin it's more about cabin air exchange rate [fresh air flow] than it would be, for example, when flying boxes in a freighter with only crew.
. . . Or will you be explaining to First Class passengers who fork over $4000 each for a seat why the cabin feels stuffy? . . . Because your company wants you to reduce cabin air flow to save fuel...?
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 2,296
Likes: 305
From: All at sea
In a twin, single-pack operation up to FL250 could be an acceptable risk, though I would not volunteer for it unless it was a written order from the boss. Another way of saving fuel, but again I would not do it unless directed, would be to reduce the cabin diff by running the cabin alt at 10,000ft. That one is good for an old airframe too.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,420
Likes: 1
From: AEP
Packs and the 747-200/300s
Most of newer generation (yet now old) 747-200/300s were produced with 3 packs, except the 200Fs which were designed with only 2 packs for specific cargo operations. I also recall old (very old) 747-100s that I flew, that were keeping good cabin altitude on only 1 pack, at say FL 350...
xxx
What we do nowadays - with our 747-200s in passenger operations, is to cruise with one pack in full flow and one other pack in "half-flow" with low passenger loads, or two packs when we have a full cabin daylight flight.
xxx
I have flown with cargo planes - often these were dry leased, converted passenger aircraft which had 3 packs, with the nº 2 pack conveniently labeled INOP (to save on maintenance) - yet, that nº 2 pack turned out to be fully operational - funny, they did not remove the pack all together to save on weight. I wish the INOP status was fully documented to crews.
xxx
As to minimum dispatch MEL considerations, yes, we say - passenger airplanes must be dispatched with 2 operating packs, and we can depart with 1 pack if cargo flight, or if operating a passenger aircraft at/below FL 250.
xxx
The idea of running a passenger aircraft with high cabin altitude (low PSI differential) is often considered. On "wild" charter flights with a bunch of drunks returning from a football/soccer game - or with children excited by their Disneyworld visit, we experiment running the cabin at 9,500 ft altitude. This puts everyone to sleep to the satisfaction of the cabin staff... After all, people from La Paz, Bolivia live fine, at 13,000 ft MSL, with "Pisco" brandy bottles at full flow.
xxx
With the OPEC barrel at $120... this is what we have come to. Sorry...
xxx
Happy contrails as usual...
xxx
What we do nowadays - with our 747-200s in passenger operations, is to cruise with one pack in full flow and one other pack in "half-flow" with low passenger loads, or two packs when we have a full cabin daylight flight.
xxx
I have flown with cargo planes - often these were dry leased, converted passenger aircraft which had 3 packs, with the nº 2 pack conveniently labeled INOP (to save on maintenance) - yet, that nº 2 pack turned out to be fully operational - funny, they did not remove the pack all together to save on weight. I wish the INOP status was fully documented to crews.
xxx
As to minimum dispatch MEL considerations, yes, we say - passenger airplanes must be dispatched with 2 operating packs, and we can depart with 1 pack if cargo flight, or if operating a passenger aircraft at/below FL 250.
xxx
The idea of running a passenger aircraft with high cabin altitude (low PSI differential) is often considered. On "wild" charter flights with a bunch of drunks returning from a football/soccer game - or with children excited by their Disneyworld visit, we experiment running the cabin at 9,500 ft altitude. This puts everyone to sleep to the satisfaction of the cabin staff... After all, people from La Paz, Bolivia live fine, at 13,000 ft MSL, with "Pisco" brandy bottles at full flow.
xxx
With the OPEC barrel at $120... this is what we have come to. Sorry...
xxx
Happy contrails as usual...
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: Wingham NSW Australia
Packs
Breecher, for all your indignation and accusations I note that you still have not specified the type of aircraft on which you operate. Would you care to enlighten us all with some FACTS?
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: Wingham NSW Australia
Panel Operators - ESC's
fflyingdoguk. At the risk of getting some flak, the "panel operators" to which you refer are professional flight engineers or pilots qualified to act as flight engineers and just to set the record straight, they are not doing the job "in place of the ESC", rather the ESC now does, in part, what F/E's used to do. Not too sure how you ask a computer how to get around an unusual problem. Maybe you can't and that is why the MEL for modern aircraft is so much more restrictive than the MEL for those aircraft which carry a F/E.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
From: cloud 9
Good post in support of F/E's "Old Fella".
However, I think "Fflyingdoguk" may be referring to FedEx, who I think have modified the cockpit lay-out of their DC10s, in order to make them similar to the MD11F and thereby be able to fly both types.
Having spent many years on the 747 Classic, it was quite a shock to convert to the -400 and not be whacked about the head by the F/E's check-list!
However, I think "Fflyingdoguk" may be referring to FedEx, who I think have modified the cockpit lay-out of their DC10s, in order to make them similar to the MD11F and thereby be able to fly both types.
Having spent many years on the 747 Classic, it was quite a shock to convert to the -400 and not be whacked about the head by the F/E's check-list!
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: UK
I think you are refering to the MD10,Dc10 with out the systems panel operator,given glass cockpit simular to the MD11,all i am saying is in reference to the panel operator quip is our MD11s spend alot less time on the ground than the old Dc10s(Read into that what you will).A flight engineer used to be just that a "flight engineer" an engineer who flew and also held a liscence(A&P) where as nowadays(with our company) they tend to be ex Capts F/Os that have to move to a back seat for age reasons etc. Our MEL for the DC10 and MD11 are very simular to the amount of restrictions that they apply,i would say if anything the MD11 MEL is slightly less restrictive.No offense to flight engineers but your time is up and the computers have all but taken over.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Rekyavik
IMHO,
Perhaps we should try cycling ALL packs ON/OFF to save fuel instead of following the manufactures' recommendations!!
PS. When are you next going to get a bonus for your fuel savings by turning packs off?
I personally like to turn all packs ON/High Flow to make the air better for the crew and pax! and to extend my longevity.
HA56
Perhaps we should try cycling ALL packs ON/OFF to save fuel instead of following the manufactures' recommendations!!
PS. When are you next going to get a bonus for your fuel savings by turning packs off?
I personally like to turn all packs ON/High Flow to make the air better for the crew and pax! and to extend my longevity.
HA56
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,611
Likes: 0
From: Gold Coast
PS. When are you next going to get a bonus for your fuel savings by turning packs off?
As I said before, it's absolutely nothing to do with saving money for the company.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,342
Likes: 0
From: Wingham NSW Australia
F/Es
fflyingdoguk, I am well aware of the situation re the demise of F/E's in the operation. Computers or not, my time was up. That does not mean F/E's can no longer contribute. point8six, I'm sure you benefited from the input of your friendly F/E, at least some of the time. Breecher, you obviously cannot advise the type you operate, if indeed you operate anything other than paper aeroplanes. Seems to me most of your posts come from a downward pointing orifice. Happy days.