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Communication failure after takeoff

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Communication failure after takeoff

Old 22nd Dec 2007, 17:37
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Communication failure after takeoff

Hi,

If we have a communication failure right after takeoff, do we have to land or do we proceed according to the Jeppesen emergency procedure? i mean is it reasonable to go to destination via flight plan route?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 22nd Dec 2007, 19:02
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Follow the SID/DP.
The general reason for no answer from departure control is that they are having a tea break...
Or in Africa, gone to sleep.
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 16:45
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Are you talking radio failure, or are you talking about the lack of two way communication?
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 16:50
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Are you visual?

The regulations - which vary slightly depending on where you are, although the principles are generally the same - say "If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable."

There are various allowances for the important difference between 'land as soon as practicable' and 'as soon as possible', but it might be hard to explain how you conducted your entire trip without ever finding visual conditions. In particular, if you have not yet climbed into the clouds on the departure, and there is no compelling objection to just landing again, the expectation would be that you fly the visual circuit back to your runway of departure, and look out for light signals from the tower.
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Old 23rd Dec 2007, 22:02
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i am talking about radio failure

And as far as i understand from CJ Driver's message, land if in VMC, else continue to destination. right?
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 10:34
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hmm, so if I am just airborne from a very busy e.g. LHR, do I just return to the landing runway ( via ILS or whatever approach ) ? Would definitively cause a big mess in their neatly arranged stack of approaching aircraft...just thinking aloud here...
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 11:38
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Do a search on 'aircraft, radio failure after departure'. Oz version (typical) below -
1.8 TOTAL RADIO COMMUNICATION FAILURE PROCEDURES
1.8.1 If total radio communication failure occurs in VMC during daylight hours, the pilot shall continue to fly in VMC and land at the most suitable aerodrome. If it occurs in VMC during the hours of darkness (between sunset and sunrise) action shall be taken in accordance with para 1.8.2 below.
1.8.2 If total radio communication failure occurs in IMC, ATC action is based on the assumption that the aircraft will continue to its destination and if unable to land, will proceed to its nominated alternate. Separation standards will be increased and airspace reserved accordingly. (see Appendices ‘A’ and
‘B’ , pages ENR 1.6-9 and 1.6-11).
1.8.3 In IMC, or if unable to maintain VFR, the pilot shall either leave or avoid controlled airspace and areas of dense traffic and establish VFR operation or, alternatively, shall:
a) Proceed according to the current flight plan, at the last assigned flight level, to the clearance limit and thereafter at the flight plan level.
b) Arrive at the destination as close as possible to ETA.
c) Commence descent as close as possible to EAT (or ETA if no EAT has been acknowledged).
Note:
1) Aircraft are to follow the established radio failure procedures as laid down by the respective airports.
2) During this 30 minute period ATC will reserve the airspace at the aircraft’s flight level and below. At the expiry of this period with the concurrence of other users normal operations will resume.
1.8.4 In all cases, the pilot shall contact ATC as soon as possible after landing.
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 13:29
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Hi

I'm presuming we are talking about a total radio communications failure,i.e no transsmittion nor reception..and since most of us here would be flying on an IFR flight plan..i would follow the procedure laid out for the country and airport/TMA zone in the radio comms failure in the jeppesen EMERGENCY section and continue to my destination
The radio communication failure procedures are constructed to give the ATC controllers time to clear the airspace that the aircraft with the comms failure is occupying/will occupy of traffic and give that aircraft a clear run to destination..plus a buffer of 30 min at the expected ETA.
Now while total comms failure is a highly stressful experience..it is not a life threatening one
Going back to land without coordination with ATC or any deviation from the established lost comms procedures at a major international airport might well prove to be a life threatning one to self and others..not to mention the utter havoc genrated at said airport
i ask if any of you seriously believe that a fast jet can be maneuvered in a manner to avoid other jets out there while going back for an immediate landing at say...heathrow,schipoll..frankfurt.
Also i wish for the input of ATC controllers about their experiences/expectations about this and similar cases

Merry christmas and a happy new year to all
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 15:02
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<<i ask if any of you seriously believe that a fast jet can be maneuvered in a manner to avoid other jets out there while going back for an immediate landing at say...heathrow,schipoll..frankfurt.>>

But jets aren't normally "fast" in such circumstances. I'm confident that ATC could handle such a situation; well they certainly could at Heathrow. Been there, done it, got the tee-shirt.....

As to the original question - standard procedures for such events are laid down in the AIP.
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 15:36
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Not being a pilot, just logical thinking. May not the f/d crew use a mobile phone to inform the powers that be of this situation?

Daz
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Old 24th Dec 2007, 16:18
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Very logical, infact I used to have a crib sheet of national ATS centres switchboards should such an emergency exist - i'll see if i can find it.

Horgy
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Old 25th Dec 2007, 00:29
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I'm wondering what would happen if say your flying from LHR-HKG and just before making your first contact with Russian airspace you have a total radio failure? What would you do? I'm quite sure the Russians would panic if you aren't replying maybe send in their Migs to intercept you?
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Old 6th Jan 2009, 17:18
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there is something that you never mention and is very important, you need to set your transponder to 7600 and with this you are sending an alert of your situation and atc will take provitions of your situation
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 00:21
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I'm wondering what would happen if say your flying from LHR-HKG and just before making your first contact with Russian airspace you have a total radio failure? What would you do? I'm quite sure the Russians would panic if you aren't replying maybe send in their Migs to intercept you?
I have had just that.

The outcome was that the SatPhone went bong, and London Ops asked if all was well. They then relayed a message to Khabarovsk (sp) via the phone, as the Russian controller had phoned London to ask BA to phone me.....

With some messing about with switches we sorted communications out and we continued on our way.
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 10:18
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I believe (top of my head before off on duty) Continue SID or last assigned heading/altitude(FL) for 7 mins, squawk 7600 then climb to flight plan cruise level, flight plan route to destination, IAF, descend, fly approach within EAT, land.

Although different countries will have different procedures enroute and on arrival, however we would have to read the jeppy on the way.

As for returning to airfield of departure? No unless you had to.
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 10:29
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L337, finger trouble or equipment failure? You don't say.
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 10:59
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"If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable."

There are various allowances for the important difference between 'land as soon as practicable' and 'as soon as possible', but it might be hard to explain how you conducted your entire trip without ever finding visual conditions. In particular, if you have not yet climbed into the clouds on the departure, and there is no compelling objection to just landing again, the expectation would be that you fly the visual circuit back to your runway of departure, and look out for light signals from the tower.
My Bold

Wouldn't be a problem with the aircraft I fly. We usually depart below MLW. What about a 747 or other heavy which would be decidedly above MLW were it to return VFR, after departure close to MTOM. Surely this would be a case for continue regardless? What are the other options?

RIX
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 11:26
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747 can dump fuel or land overweight. Overweight landings as long as they're smooth are no big deal.
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 15:37
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Land if in VMC, else continue to destination.
I do confirm. Basically, apply the rule.
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Old 7th Jan 2009, 16:56
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ok guys...

so if you take off from london do you just do a circuit and land?
or do you continue on the SID and then return back for the appraoch via LAM?
and lets suppose your flight is abt ten hours long .....
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