RNav Arrivals
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Joined: Jan 2007
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From: cheshire
RNav Arrivals
Can anyone clarify the regulations regarding RNav arrivals when the RNav STAR's are not pre programmed in the box. Eg If I was cleared to fly the RNAV 1 arrival into airfield X and discovered that the arrival was not pre programed into my FMS 1 Could I manualy construct the RNav arrival and accept the clearance or is that illegal, Or would I have to declare to ATC that I cannot accept this RNAV arrival and request an alternative. I.m asking this question relating to existing RNav procedures not the new PRnav stuff. also are the deffinative rules relating to RNav found in Pans ops if not where could I find them?
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: USA
ahramin: Sorry can't help you on the Pans ops but in north america only an approach needs to be loaded from the database, arrivals can be pilot programmed.
In the U.S., all RNAV SIDs/STARs must be extracted from the database.
The pertinent reference is AC 90-100A.
10. U.S. RNAV FLIGHT CREW OPERATING PROCEDURES.
b. General Operating Procedures. Operators and pilots should not request or file U.S. RNAV routes or procedures unless satisfying the criteria in this AC. If an aircraft not meeting these criteria receives a clearance from ATC to conduct an RNAV procedure, the pilot must advise ATC that he/she is unable to accept the clearance and request alternate instructions.
(1) The pilot should comply with any instructions or procedures identified by the manufacturer as necessary to comply with the equipment requirements of this AC.
(2) At system initialization, pilots must confirm the navigation database is current and verify the aircraft’s present position.
(3) RNAV DPs and STAR procedures must be retrieved by procedure name from the onboard navigation database and conform to the charted procedure.
(4) Whenever possible, RNAV routes should be extracted from the database in their entirety, rather than loading RNAV route waypoints from the database into the flight plan individually. Selecting and inserting individual, named fixes from the database is permitted, provided all fixes along the published route to be flown are inserted.
(5) Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted. Additionally, pilots must not change any RNAV DP or STAR database waypoint type from a fly-by to a fly-over or vice versa.
b. General Operating Procedures. Operators and pilots should not request or file U.S. RNAV routes or procedures unless satisfying the criteria in this AC. If an aircraft not meeting these criteria receives a clearance from ATC to conduct an RNAV procedure, the pilot must advise ATC that he/she is unable to accept the clearance and request alternate instructions.
(1) The pilot should comply with any instructions or procedures identified by the manufacturer as necessary to comply with the equipment requirements of this AC.
(2) At system initialization, pilots must confirm the navigation database is current and verify the aircraft’s present position.
(3) RNAV DPs and STAR procedures must be retrieved by procedure name from the onboard navigation database and conform to the charted procedure.
(4) Whenever possible, RNAV routes should be extracted from the database in their entirety, rather than loading RNAV route waypoints from the database into the flight plan individually. Selecting and inserting individual, named fixes from the database is permitted, provided all fixes along the published route to be flown are inserted.
(5) Manual entry of waypoints using latitude/longitude or place/bearing is not permitted. Additionally, pilots must not change any RNAV DP or STAR database waypoint type from a fly-by to a fly-over or vice versa.
the lunatic fringe
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From: Everywhere
Could I manually construct the RNav arrival
If it is not in the box, you cannot do it.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Seat 1A
Zeffy, I don't think you're right. The AC says you can:
so if you couldn't retrieve the procedure from the DB, build it up yourself using DB waypoints.
You can't create your own waypoints.
Selecting and inserting individual, named fixes from the database is permitted, provided all fixes along the published route to be flown are inserted.
You can't create your own waypoints.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: USA
Sorry, but this time I am quite right.
The AC takes great pains to differentiate between RNAV routes (Q-routes and T-routes) vs. RNAV procedures (SIDs/STARs).
The technique you cite is OK for manual construction of routes (airways) but is explicitly not permitted for RNAV SIDs/STARs.
RNAV SIDs/STARs must be extracted by name, from the database, period.
The AC takes great pains to differentiate between RNAV routes (Q-routes and T-routes) vs. RNAV procedures (SIDs/STARs).
The technique you cite is OK for manual construction of routes (airways) but is explicitly not permitted for RNAV SIDs/STARs.
RNAV SIDs/STARs must be extracted by name, from the database, period.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Seat 1A
Zeffy,
Yes, you are right. Sorry. I guess that's why you bolded the bit you did?
FYI, here in Oz we can do whatever we like for RNAV waypoints (inc SIDs or STARs), but only above the MSA (below the MSA you have to use ATC or gorund navaids to permit further descent). We have to check the tracks and distances, and if we create our own waypoints each crewmember has to independently check each one. Not that I'd bother making my own waypoints for a STAR; radar vectors are much more exciting.
Yes, you are right. Sorry. I guess that's why you bolded the bit you did?
FYI, here in Oz we can do whatever we like for RNAV waypoints (inc SIDs or STARs), but only above the MSA (below the MSA you have to use ATC or gorund navaids to permit further descent). We have to check the tracks and distances, and if we create our own waypoints each crewmember has to independently check each one. Not that I'd bother making my own waypoints for a STAR; radar vectors are much more exciting.
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From: paradise
ever_flying,
Cheers
EU-OPS 1.243
(a) An operator shall ensure that an aeroplane operated in areas, or through portions of airspace, or on routes where navigation performance requirements have been specified, is certified according to these requirements, and, if required, that the Authority has granted the relevant operational approval.
(b) An operator of an aeroplane operating in areas referred to in (a) shall ensure that all contingency procedures, specified by the authority responsible for the airspace concerned, have been included in the Operations Manual.
(a) An operator shall ensure that an aeroplane operated in areas, or through portions of airspace, or on routes where navigation performance requirements have been specified, is certified according to these requirements, and, if required, that the Authority has granted the relevant operational approval.
(b) An operator of an aeroplane operating in areas referred to in (a) shall ensure that all contingency procedures, specified by the authority responsible for the airspace concerned, have been included in the Operations Manual.
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From: Paris
Actually, my question was:
You're flying in an european company (i.e. under EU-OPS) to an european airport.
Your aircraft is B-RNAV certified (let's even say P-RNAV certified).
Your company's AOC mention that you're B-RNAV approved.
Can you fly a B-RNAV SID or STAR if you manually construct this SID or STAR or dou have to extract the SID or STAR from the database?
You're flying in an european company (i.e. under EU-OPS) to an european airport.
Your aircraft is B-RNAV certified (let's even say P-RNAV certified).
Your company's AOC mention that you're B-RNAV approved.
Can you fly a B-RNAV SID or STAR if you manually construct this SID or STAR or dou have to extract the SID or STAR from the database?
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From: paradise
ever flying there's some guide lines contained in regional procedures for EU in doc 7030. I tend to agree with the previous posts that it shouldn't be used though don't really see a big problem to connect all the way points together provided they're in the database. However that's what the relevant doc says:
RNAV approaches of course must be available in the box and remain unchanged in order to fly it.
Cheers.
FLIGHT PROCEDURES (Doc 8168) - ARRIVAL AND NON-PRECISION APPROACH PROCEDURES 1 AREA NAVIGATION (RNAV) ARRIVAL AND APPROACH PROCEDURES FOR NAVIGATION SYSTEMS USING BASIC GNSS RECEIVERS
1.2.3 Navigation database
Departure and approach waypoint information is contained in a navigation database. If the navigation database does not contain the departure or approach procedure, then the basic GNSS stand-alone receiver or FMC shall not be used for these procedures.
1.2.3 Navigation database
Departure and approach waypoint information is contained in a navigation database. If the navigation database does not contain the departure or approach procedure, then the basic GNSS stand-alone receiver or FMC shall not be used for these procedures.
Cheers.
Joined: Dec 2007
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From: paradise
Hey BOAC let's skip the devil's advocate play here, shall we? Flexing the brain cells towards common goal is more useful to all of us. Talking of which one's gotta make sure the nav accuracy requirement is met ergo set 1 NM in the box as required value in case of PRNAV self-constructed arrival.
PPRuNeaholic
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From: Cairns FNQ
It truly doesn't matter whether you're in the UK, USA or Timbuktoo, the elemental fact is that, if you string waypoints together from the database, the nav system is most likely going to interpret them all as fly-by. That won't be a problem unless you've got one or more fly-overs in the actual procedure and you are prepared to bet the lives of all on board on the nav system tracking tolerances.
Some Airbus systems might be an exception, but does your Ops Manual REALLY allow you to use it?
Some Airbus systems might be an exception, but does your Ops Manual REALLY allow you to use it?
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From: paradise
OE no reference in part A whatsoever I'm afraid. Here is what airbus says:
Well there we go again typical Airbus saying lots and nothing. Basically NO but if needed can be done, blah blah... On various occasions discrepancies of different severity between the charts and the box were detected and modified to match the chart version. Is it constructing, amending or whatever? I guess depends very much on the particular situation. One thing is for sure though RNAV IAP is not ought to be modified. In case of a doubt say NO.
PROCEDURES
The terminal procedure (RNAV SID, RNAV STAR, RNAV TRANSITION, ...) must be loaded from the FM navigation database and checked for reasonableness, by comparing the waypoints, tracks, distances and altitude constraints (displayed on the F-PLN page), with the procedure chart.
The flight crew must not modify the procedure, that is loaded from the navigation database, unless instructed to do so by the ATC (DIR TO, radar vectoring, insertion of waypoints loaded from the navigation database).
The terminal procedure (RNAV SID, RNAV STAR, RNAV TRANSITION, ...) must be loaded from the FM navigation database and checked for reasonableness, by comparing the waypoints, tracks, distances and altitude constraints (displayed on the F-PLN page), with the procedure chart.
The flight crew must not modify the procedure, that is loaded from the navigation database, unless instructed to do so by the ATC (DIR TO, radar vectoring, insertion of waypoints loaded from the navigation database).