737 when reduce speed?
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737 when reduce speed?
Guys,some questions for you:
1. 30NM to go on final, 10kts tailwind, elevation 0, 11000ft,speed 310, what to do?
2.same scenario, but a 20kt headwind, is the profile ok?
3.any rules of thumb calculating something like that?
4.When will you have latest flaps 1 on a field where the glideslope intercept is pretty low, like 2000agl etc?
appreciate your experience
Thanks
OD
1. 30NM to go on final, 10kts tailwind, elevation 0, 11000ft,speed 310, what to do?
2.same scenario, but a 20kt headwind, is the profile ok?
3.any rules of thumb calculating something like that?
4.When will you have latest flaps 1 on a field where the glideslope intercept is pretty low, like 2000agl etc?
appreciate your experience
Thanks
OD
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There's a handle on the left side of the centre console.
It's called the speedbrake.
Now would be a good time to use it
Well, several options come to mind...
1) Ask for extra trackmiles from ATC - be it a wider base leg or an orbit
2) Leave the speedbrake out even when you drop to 250 @ 100
3) Take the gear early - it will extend at 270 KIAS, so no reason not to take it when you're back to 250
4) Drop back on the speed and configure early - with flaps 40 & approach idle it will come down at an impressive angle. But remember to tell ATC what you're doing - the get very alarmed when they see your GS drop back to 150 and like to know that sort of stuff in advance for separation purposes. And if they don't know what you're doing, they might send you around again to get the height off - they generally don't know what angles a 73 is capable of achieving.
5) The best option - you should have seen this one way earlier than 310 @110 and corrected while you had the speed/altitude-buffer to do so. With only 1000 ft to lose 60 kts, you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.
Rule of thumb? 3 NM per 1000 ft. + 10 NM for deceleration. Add one NM to this for each 10 KT of tailwind and subtract similarily for a headwind. If you're on a CL / non-winglet, you can use 5 NM for the decel.
Regarding F1 - it depends on the headwind on the approach and if ATC allows you to fly a CDA or not. If on a CDA, it should generally be around the 10 NM-point. If in level flight, and a 40 kt headwind, you can go to F5 with GS interception and take the gear+F15 at roughly 4 NM.
Hope this helps,
Empty.
It's called the speedbrake.
Now would be a good time to use it
Well, several options come to mind...
1) Ask for extra trackmiles from ATC - be it a wider base leg or an orbit
2) Leave the speedbrake out even when you drop to 250 @ 100
3) Take the gear early - it will extend at 270 KIAS, so no reason not to take it when you're back to 250
4) Drop back on the speed and configure early - with flaps 40 & approach idle it will come down at an impressive angle. But remember to tell ATC what you're doing - the get very alarmed when they see your GS drop back to 150 and like to know that sort of stuff in advance for separation purposes. And if they don't know what you're doing, they might send you around again to get the height off - they generally don't know what angles a 73 is capable of achieving.
5) The best option - you should have seen this one way earlier than 310 @110 and corrected while you had the speed/altitude-buffer to do so. With only 1000 ft to lose 60 kts, you've pretty much painted yourself into a corner.
Rule of thumb? 3 NM per 1000 ft. + 10 NM for deceleration. Add one NM to this for each 10 KT of tailwind and subtract similarily for a headwind. If you're on a CL / non-winglet, you can use 5 NM for the decel.
Regarding F1 - it depends on the headwind on the approach and if ATC allows you to fly a CDA or not. If on a CDA, it should generally be around the 10 NM-point. If in level flight, and a 40 kt headwind, you can go to F5 with GS interception and take the gear+F15 at roughly 4 NM.
Hope this helps,
Empty.
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If you really want to get down, then go for landing config. Slow descent/decellaration down to FL100, gear down at 250, F5 at 230, F15 at 190, F30 at 170. You should now be at around 20 NM, FL100 with a FPA of around 6. And the VB would then be 5. Sorted. (you'll end up just slightly high at 10 NM.) You could of course use the speed brakes and delay the config abit.
It's quite useful to know roughly what kind of FPAs you get with different configs. 280 kts is, as you know, around 3.
F5+speedbrake gives you around 4,5.
Landing config, typically 6.
It's quite useful to know roughly what kind of FPAs you get with different configs. 280 kts is, as you know, around 3.
F5+speedbrake gives you around 4,5.
Landing config, typically 6.
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I wouldn't follow RYR 738 Jocks advise.
A couple of things makes me think he flies SIMS not aircraft.
Nobody I have ever flown with would suggest being configured for landing at FL100.
Use the speed brakes!
Also the phrase FPA (flight path angle) is not one I have heard used by 737 pilots (I have only flown 737 2,3,4 and 500). V/S yes, but FPA no.
A couple of things makes me think he flies SIMS not aircraft.
Nobody I have ever flown with would suggest being configured for landing at FL100.
Use the speed brakes!
Also the phrase FPA (flight path angle) is not one I have heard used by 737 pilots (I have only flown 737 2,3,4 and 500). V/S yes, but FPA no.
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Why does an open and honest question from a guy with 2000hrs on the 737 provoke both judgemental and sarcastic comments. Come on guys, give the guy a break. Especially you Rainboe, you're feckin' pathetic.
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well, yes, i have 2000hours. the point is, id like to profit from the unending experience of you guys. i have from time to time an approach i could have made better. so i ask you for help and hints that will help me fly better und more professional. sometimes i think im not so good in flying, but im sure there are guys with 2000hrs who are NOT perfect in what they are doing outside. so thats my opinion, replies appreciated.
od
od
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25 miles, 250 kts and 10000 feet is a good place to aim for
Speed brake should be sufficient in this scenario if not then use the gear.
I wouldn’t take the gear (all gets a bit noisy), unless it didn’t seem to becoming into plan.
Rules of thumb I use; the glide slope on the standby alt (gives a good indication of where you are in relation to the glide and press the meters button, the first 2 figures are what you generally need in miles, the FMC DME or fix page DME are what you have got left (seems to include the normal spped reductions in that too).
And ready to be shot down in flames, but isn’t the use of flaps to slow
down slightly frowned, on as it puts extra stress on the linkages over time, i.e. try all other means first.
Qwertyuiop, in the NG there is a FPV button which displays a symbol on the display, so it is an accepted term in 737 circles, NG at least.
Speed brake should be sufficient in this scenario if not then use the gear.
I wouldn’t take the gear (all gets a bit noisy), unless it didn’t seem to becoming into plan.
Rules of thumb I use; the glide slope on the standby alt (gives a good indication of where you are in relation to the glide and press the meters button, the first 2 figures are what you generally need in miles, the FMC DME or fix page DME are what you have got left (seems to include the normal spped reductions in that too).
And ready to be shot down in flames, but isn’t the use of flaps to slow
down slightly frowned, on as it puts extra stress on the linkages over time, i.e. try all other means first.
Qwertyuiop, in the NG there is a FPV button which displays a symbol on the display, so it is an accepted term in 737 circles, NG at least.
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Been thrashed out moons ago. I see the same old drivel once again. Please have a search and then ask again if nothing found. Theer is some real clap trap spoken here.
A skillful pilot is one who avoids getting into a situation where skill is required to escape!!
A skillful pilot is one who avoids getting into a situation where skill is required to escape!!
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NG, 1-5 limit is 250kts. that doesn't imply you should select them at 250, though!
Idealy, speed reducing, and becoming within 10kts of the current Flap selection speed, is the time to selct the next flap.
Clean speed on the NG is ref40+70kts.
Assuming this gives 205kts, then selecting f1 at 215kts with the speed reducing, ideally.etc
Using flaps to get the speed will cause extra load on the mechanism, extra ire in the training department.
Personally, if it's above 4000agl, and I need it, speedbrake. If it's below, gear. I simply don't like having lots of hands/arms crossing the pedestal when it starts getting busy, especially when you are nearing msa.
Idealy, speed reducing, and becoming within 10kts of the current Flap selection speed, is the time to selct the next flap.
Clean speed on the NG is ref40+70kts.
Assuming this gives 205kts, then selecting f1 at 215kts with the speed reducing, ideally.etc
Using flaps to get the speed will cause extra load on the mechanism, extra ire in the training department.
Personally, if it's above 4000agl, and I need it, speedbrake. If it's below, gear. I simply don't like having lots of hands/arms crossing the pedestal when it starts getting busy, especially when you are nearing msa.
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HAHAHA yet another reasonably good thread hiijacked by arseholes!
Right,
I don't fly a 737 but I fly another boeing. 21nm reduced to top bug speed (flap 1), 14 nm 180 knots (ish). I fly lots on LGW and they hold you 220 for ages, then 180 till about 10 miles. 160 to 4nm etc etc.
As empty cruise said - speed brake is your friend. I wouldn't do what Ryanir air man suggested (landing config at FL 100, that's insane!). Stick to SOP's with regards to flap and gear selections. If the speed brake doesn't work as planned, take gear early. Simple. If that doesn't work, ask for extra miles or an orbit. Aim for 160 by 10nm is a good point to aim for.
L Met
Right,
I don't fly a 737 but I fly another boeing. 21nm reduced to top bug speed (flap 1), 14 nm 180 knots (ish). I fly lots on LGW and they hold you 220 for ages, then 180 till about 10 miles. 160 to 4nm etc etc.
As empty cruise said - speed brake is your friend. I wouldn't do what Ryanir air man suggested (landing config at FL 100, that's insane!). Stick to SOP's with regards to flap and gear selections. If the speed brake doesn't work as planned, take gear early. Simple. If that doesn't work, ask for extra miles or an orbit. Aim for 160 by 10nm is a good point to aim for.
L Met
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1. You are over 2000 high on profile taking speed into account. If you can't hold high speed below 10,000 then you need the speedbrake now while you reduce to 250 then keep it out until you are back on profile. Make sure you are at clean speed by 12 track miles and you can then clean up any remaining excess with gear or keep the speedbrake out as you take the flap on schedule. If you can keep high speed and you don't mind risking a bird in the cockpit and are on your game then go for 320 to about 20nm then pull the speedbrake and select clean speed. You'll be there or there abouts and can kill the rest with gear but try to select it below 220 kts for pax comfort. In any case you won't have 10 tail all the way down or its highly likely they'll be on another runway, well mostly anyway.
2. As above but you'll correct to profile quicker.
3. 3nm per 1000' height loss add a mile for every 10 kts above clean. So 310 kts at 11000 you'll want to at @ 45 nm.
4 We aim for CDA's. Generaly I'll take flap 1 no later than 10 nms. If you were level at 2000 well below at say 10 nms then it all depends on the wind and ATC but you could get away with waiting until 1 dot fly up on most occasions if your feeling brave.
The really big sin is to be high speed close in always aim for clean at 12 nm to be there latest at 10 nm. You then have all the options, brake, gear flap or all three. So high speed at range to correct to profile, slow in good time then correct remaining smaller profile errors.
Ignore Ryrs advice. He's showing very poor husbandry of the aircraft and if thats what they do in his airline they will pay for it eventually with Flap incidents. At my home base we are often upto 6000' above profile in the mid teens with tailwind and I have always managed to retrieve it without the need for extra track miles and taking flap on the normal schedule. Incidently if you need to use land flap to steepen your slope to retrieve a poor situation then slow it down and follow your flap schedule to land flap then lower your nose with idle set in lvl chg. I'd suggest its a VMC or above MSA mvr though as alt acquire is often an issue at your last cleared level as you try to regain the glidepath once on the localiser so you have to wind the MCP alt down. Perfect CFIT set up.
2. As above but you'll correct to profile quicker.
3. 3nm per 1000' height loss add a mile for every 10 kts above clean. So 310 kts at 11000 you'll want to at @ 45 nm.
4 We aim for CDA's. Generaly I'll take flap 1 no later than 10 nms. If you were level at 2000 well below at say 10 nms then it all depends on the wind and ATC but you could get away with waiting until 1 dot fly up on most occasions if your feeling brave.
The really big sin is to be high speed close in always aim for clean at 12 nm to be there latest at 10 nm. You then have all the options, brake, gear flap or all three. So high speed at range to correct to profile, slow in good time then correct remaining smaller profile errors.
Ignore Ryrs advice. He's showing very poor husbandry of the aircraft and if thats what they do in his airline they will pay for it eventually with Flap incidents. At my home base we are often upto 6000' above profile in the mid teens with tailwind and I have always managed to retrieve it without the need for extra track miles and taking flap on the normal schedule. Incidently if you need to use land flap to steepen your slope to retrieve a poor situation then slow it down and follow your flap schedule to land flap then lower your nose with idle set in lvl chg. I'd suggest its a VMC or above MSA mvr though as alt acquire is often an issue at your last cleared level as you try to regain the glidepath once on the localiser so you have to wind the MCP alt down. Perfect CFIT set up.
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Increase your speed to 320/335 kts and pull the speedbrake. Speedbrake is more efficient at high speeds! SO if you want to use speedbrakes just descent at high speed and as soon as your flying level decelarate further.
Make sure your around clean speed at 12nm. You can do 180kts till 8nm and 160 till 4nm.
And of course you still have the gear!
Make sure your around clean speed at 12nm. You can do 180kts till 8nm and 160 till 4nm.
And of course you still have the gear!
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Speedbrake will certainly work fine at 320 and is more effective at high speed you are quite right Flash and your way will work fine. However above 300 it does put quite a bit of extra stress on the tail although there is no longer any limitation on its use. Wouldn't go for 335 though as red line is at 340 and it doesn't take much to bump the speed up 10 kts and then its an ASR with engineering checks required. If I saw an F/O select 335 I'd tell him to back it off, in a pleasant way of course.
In an ideal world, ATC permitting, you would bring your speed back as you go high on profile so that when you get cleared to descend you can accelerate from slow speed, with or without brake, and dive more height off. VNAV does this for you with energy compensation but its not as dynamic as doing it for yourself. If its an airfield your familiar with you can even anticipate the problem and manage your speed and profile to minimise the problem. Of course at a-lot of fields this is usually not possable due to ATC restrictions.
In an ideal world, ATC permitting, you would bring your speed back as you go high on profile so that when you get cleared to descend you can accelerate from slow speed, with or without brake, and dive more height off. VNAV does this for you with energy compensation but its not as dynamic as doing it for yourself. If its an airfield your familiar with you can even anticipate the problem and manage your speed and profile to minimise the problem. Of course at a-lot of fields this is usually not possable due to ATC restrictions.
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Well, Londonmet. Since you're always flying into the mains I wouldn't expect you to understand, anyway. Landing config at 20 NM is of course never required, nor expected in airspace around the main airports. However, trying to ridicule a perfectly feasible option, speaks for itself. Try that attitude in Spain/Poland/Italy. Sometimes, you just have to get it sorted. Period. Or start a dispute with ATC, and they won't understand. Capish??!
I hope everyone agrees that in the mentioned scenario (with 250 below FL100), speedbrake will not get you down in time. You'll then end up around 3-4000' high above threshold.
(Speedbrake above 300 is not good, no limitation though. Extending gear/flaps a little early is a better option. Just check FCTM + Bill Bulfers Cockpit Companion + Pat Boones Mgr)
I hope everyone agrees that in the mentioned scenario (with 250 below FL100), speedbrake will not get you down in time. You'll then end up around 3-4000' high above threshold.
(Speedbrake above 300 is not good, no limitation though. Extending gear/flaps a little early is a better option. Just check FCTM + Bill Bulfers Cockpit Companion + Pat Boones Mgr)