New technologies, reason for accidents...?
There are countless opportunities for pilots of current airline types to manually fly and land their aircraft. I am sure the majority of pilots who are in the job because of the sheer enjoyment of flying, would welcome the opportunity for hands-on practice to increase their competency. On the other hand one sees pilots who have been brought up on automatics from their first type rating and fear switching off a flight director. Despite lip service by some operators on the need to remain competent at non-automatics, the fact is most airlines insist on full use of automatics at all times. Basic flying skills then fly out of the window. It then becomes safer to stick to the automatics. Catch 22.
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Once again, I agree with my colleague, Centaurus. Autoflight can be a very nice thing to have available in the cockpit – but it can be very much “drug-like” in its habit pattern dependency; and worse, its effect is usually so subtitle that it isn’t recognized until one tries to do without it – out of necessity. What is more, I wouldn’t make the differentiation simply between switching the flight director ON or OFF. The more automatics are used (i.e., use of the autothrottle, use of altitude select or altitude hold – with autopilot or FD, use of an FMS – planning and/or completing climb or descents to final or intermediate points – including entry into or departure from arrival holding patterns; selecting and using en route navigation facilities – including instrument arrival and approach/missed approach facilities; and, in the computer-controlled machines, even the use of “automatic” trim and “g” limit protection; etc.) the more “dependent” the pilot becomes … and, as Centaurus very correctly points out, the more the basic flying skills “fly out of the window,” and it “becomes safer to stick to the automatics.”
I certainly don’t mind the advent of “workload relievers,” and after a very long flight, over night flight, etc., it IS quite relieving to let “George” handle the approach while the flight crew monitors carefully. However, I have seen normally qualified pilots handed an airplane with the autothrottle inop and, as a result, a normal “ILS in VMC” approach flown on the autopilot to the Marker and then hand-flown to landing, be right on the ragged edge of what would be considered acceptable. Why? Simply because of being overly dependent on the autothrottle system to keep up with the multitude of pitch changes encountered during ANY approach trying to maintain the glide slope – even when the runway is, and has been, clearly in sight. IF companies are going to insist on flight crews using automatics under most conditions (and I question the logic behind that position anyway), then it would certainly be incumbent on those companies to ensure that basic flying skills be reviewed in depth and in a determined manner during each recurrent training session – just as reviewing other, not-often seen scenarios, like engine (and other system) failures, very low visibility approaches, extreme crosswind takeoffs and landings, etc.
There is an old and oft repeated saying when speaking more than one language … “if you don’t use it, you’re going to lose it…” and I, for one, strongly believe that applies to basic flying skills at least as much, and perhaps more.
I certainly don’t mind the advent of “workload relievers,” and after a very long flight, over night flight, etc., it IS quite relieving to let “George” handle the approach while the flight crew monitors carefully. However, I have seen normally qualified pilots handed an airplane with the autothrottle inop and, as a result, a normal “ILS in VMC” approach flown on the autopilot to the Marker and then hand-flown to landing, be right on the ragged edge of what would be considered acceptable. Why? Simply because of being overly dependent on the autothrottle system to keep up with the multitude of pitch changes encountered during ANY approach trying to maintain the glide slope – even when the runway is, and has been, clearly in sight. IF companies are going to insist on flight crews using automatics under most conditions (and I question the logic behind that position anyway), then it would certainly be incumbent on those companies to ensure that basic flying skills be reviewed in depth and in a determined manner during each recurrent training session – just as reviewing other, not-often seen scenarios, like engine (and other system) failures, very low visibility approaches, extreme crosswind takeoffs and landings, etc.
There is an old and oft repeated saying when speaking more than one language … “if you don’t use it, you’re going to lose it…” and I, for one, strongly believe that applies to basic flying skills at least as much, and perhaps more.
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Despite lip service by some operators on the need to remain competent at non-automatics, the fact is most airlines insist on full use of automatics at all times. Basic flying skills then fly out of the window. It then becomes safer to stick to the automatics. Catch 22.
There is an old and oft repeated saying when speaking more than one language … “if you don’t use it, you’re going to lose it…” and I, for one, strongly believe that applies to basic flying skills at least as much, and perhaps more.
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Agree with most of the posts here, most experienced crews here have been in both worlds, I for one feel that things are safer and smoother. Wasn't too long ago I passengered out to join a flight, the equipment was a DC-9 (-10 I think), I felt like I had been through a ride at Disney World, yanking and banking, huge power adjustments, please give me the smooth world of automation.
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Hello BelArgUSA,
Sorry to quote only the last sentence of your post, it deserved complete quoting, but this one triggered some thoughts I wanted to share.
I am also a baby boomer only a couple of years from retirement. I learnt about flying with old timers like T33, F84F, then practiced 707, Caravelle, 737-200, but also flew A320, MD11 and now the 744 for the past ten years. Flew with old school tyrants, old geniuses, and then young enthusiastic chaps and today, sometimes, with toads loaded with more ambition than brains.
I have reached a stage where I think I can look back and serenely analyse what has happened in the past forty-two years or so of my flying (Starting at 16 y.o. with Grünau and Rhönlerche gliders).
It is true that in the old days, pilots needed quite a bit of skill; handling skills but also 3d position awareness, anticipation on dynamic situation, and all that made “airmanship”, “captaincy”, “crew spirit” and what is now named with hi-tech Harvard type lingo in CRM…
Air transportation was a public service (except in the USA) in the hands of governments, so skill was highly priced and rewarded but outrageously expensive for the industry: No phase III sims, lengthy training in airplanes, endless time build up in the right seat, flight engineers and….crashes.
Flying was dangerous (and sex a lot safer indeed) because the technology was still at experimental level, and the industry was counting on pilots skills and experience for safety, with mitigated results.
It is true that nowadays, new generation pilots have not got the skills and knowledge that would make them safe pilots in the world we have lived, and it is true that this is because new technology is depriving them from building those skills. Flight management computers, Nav displays, Auto Flight Director Systems (we do not speak about “George” anymore), ACARS, CPDLC, LNAV/VNAV approaches on a three degree G/S instead of our VOR non precisions, the VNAV to compute the descent, W/V data predictions, electronic flight bag, and all these things that used to happen in our computing brains and are now written in plain language in front of you.
However, statistics show that although pilots have less flying skills and airmanship, there is a dramatic decrease in air accident, even with a dramatic increase in air traffic.
The reason is that technology has developed faster and further than pilots’ skills have waned, compensated largely for this lack of skill and airmanship.
In other words, the industry policy makers (Aircraft Manufacturers, Airlines Managers, and States Regulators) have succeeded in reaching a win-win situation for themselves and the industry clients:
Improve flight safety for the clients (pax and freight forwarders), and decrease the labour cost hence the fixed costs thus increasing their profit margins.
Training a pilot has never been so short and cheap; upgrading a co-pilot to captain has never been so easy and with so little failure rate. Responsibility of the pilot has never been so low (however, his accountability and liability remained!) and pilots have never been so cheap and controlled.
The sad part is only on the pilot’s side. It used to be that we either had the fun or we had the money, and there was always the glamour. Today there is neither money nor fun, and if there is a lot of money, there is no life, or a very hard one; as for the glamour…..
Young people with more brains than enthusiasm have started realizing that, and the boomerang is coming back in the face of the industry leaders: pilot shortage.
Personally, I have come to terms with the times: In a couple of years, I’ll go back to Africa and fly one of those real airplanes with no computers, no GPS, no flight director, no FADEC, just wings and engines, and the stuff to move them the right way.
So, new technologies, but I do not believe it does increase safety, and certainly does not contribute to promote or maintain airmanship. I am curious to read those who will oppose my point of view... (or share it)
I am also a baby boomer only a couple of years from retirement. I learnt about flying with old timers like T33, F84F, then practiced 707, Caravelle, 737-200, but also flew A320, MD11 and now the 744 for the past ten years. Flew with old school tyrants, old geniuses, and then young enthusiastic chaps and today, sometimes, with toads loaded with more ambition than brains.
I have reached a stage where I think I can look back and serenely analyse what has happened in the past forty-two years or so of my flying (Starting at 16 y.o. with Grünau and Rhönlerche gliders).
It is true that in the old days, pilots needed quite a bit of skill; handling skills but also 3d position awareness, anticipation on dynamic situation, and all that made “airmanship”, “captaincy”, “crew spirit” and what is now named with hi-tech Harvard type lingo in CRM…
Air transportation was a public service (except in the USA) in the hands of governments, so skill was highly priced and rewarded but outrageously expensive for the industry: No phase III sims, lengthy training in airplanes, endless time build up in the right seat, flight engineers and….crashes.
Flying was dangerous (and sex a lot safer indeed) because the technology was still at experimental level, and the industry was counting on pilots skills and experience for safety, with mitigated results.
It is true that nowadays, new generation pilots have not got the skills and knowledge that would make them safe pilots in the world we have lived, and it is true that this is because new technology is depriving them from building those skills. Flight management computers, Nav displays, Auto Flight Director Systems (we do not speak about “George” anymore), ACARS, CPDLC, LNAV/VNAV approaches on a three degree G/S instead of our VOR non precisions, the VNAV to compute the descent, W/V data predictions, electronic flight bag, and all these things that used to happen in our computing brains and are now written in plain language in front of you.
However, statistics show that although pilots have less flying skills and airmanship, there is a dramatic decrease in air accident, even with a dramatic increase in air traffic.
The reason is that technology has developed faster and further than pilots’ skills have waned, compensated largely for this lack of skill and airmanship.
In other words, the industry policy makers (Aircraft Manufacturers, Airlines Managers, and States Regulators) have succeeded in reaching a win-win situation for themselves and the industry clients:
Improve flight safety for the clients (pax and freight forwarders), and decrease the labour cost hence the fixed costs thus increasing their profit margins.
Training a pilot has never been so short and cheap; upgrading a co-pilot to captain has never been so easy and with so little failure rate. Responsibility of the pilot has never been so low (however, his accountability and liability remained!) and pilots have never been so cheap and controlled.
The sad part is only on the pilot’s side. It used to be that we either had the fun or we had the money, and there was always the glamour. Today there is neither money nor fun, and if there is a lot of money, there is no life, or a very hard one; as for the glamour…..
Young people with more brains than enthusiasm have started realizing that, and the boomerang is coming back in the face of the industry leaders: pilot shortage.
Personally, I have come to terms with the times: In a couple of years, I’ll go back to Africa and fly one of those real airplanes with no computers, no GPS, no flight director, no FADEC, just wings and engines, and the stuff to move them the right way.
The sad part is only on the pilot’s side. It used to be that we either had the fun or we had the money, and there was always the glamour. Today there is neither money nor fun, and if there is a lot of money, there is no life, or a very hard one; as for the glamour…..
Young people with more brains than enthusiasm have started realizing that, and the boomerang is coming back in the face of the industry leaders: pilot shortage.
Personally, I have come to terms with the times: In a couple of years, I’ll go back to Africa and fly one of those real airplanes with no computers, no GPS, no flight director, no FADEC, just wings and engines, and the stuff to move them the right way
Young people with more brains than enthusiasm have started realizing that, and the boomerang is coming back in the face of the industry leaders: pilot shortage.
Personally, I have come to terms with the times: In a couple of years, I’ll go back to Africa and fly one of those real airplanes with no computers, no GPS, no flight director, no FADEC, just wings and engines, and the stuff to move them the right way
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Signs ofthe Times?
Lemper's post reminded me of BA Training Centre (Cranebank, Heathrow) when a cartoon appeared on the notice board . . . .
Picture of two pilots, sitting in armchairs, with a bare control panel in front of them apart from two buttons: "stop" and "go". Caption: "It's great what our union has done for us"
That was some years ago, when a 747 (with round instruments!) was allowed to go to (I think) 500' before human hands had to be in control. Maybe I'm an old "dino",but I'd still rather have some of the guys I knew then have control of the aircraft, than someone who knew just how to set up the computer.
The computers may be great, but when s*** comes to bust, I still believe you need raw airmanship. Sadly, it appears that my worries have at least some foundation, that all of the "autos" are depriving us (us in the back, and you guys in the front) of the experience that's needed when in a nasty corner.
Picture of two pilots, sitting in armchairs, with a bare control panel in front of them apart from two buttons: "stop" and "go". Caption: "It's great what our union has done for us"
That was some years ago, when a 747 (with round instruments!) was allowed to go to (I think) 500' before human hands had to be in control. Maybe I'm an old "dino",but I'd still rather have some of the guys I knew then have control of the aircraft, than someone who knew just how to set up the computer.
The computers may be great, but when s*** comes to bust, I still believe you need raw airmanship. Sadly, it appears that my worries have at least some foundation, that all of the "autos" are depriving us (us in the back, and you guys in the front) of the experience that's needed when in a nasty corner.
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Yep, this is called “nostalgia”, like enjoying a nice piece of classic jazz by Ella Fitzgerald, or of Paganini by Yehudi Menuhin.
I think we are not more unsafe today than 30 years ago, even if the wiz kids in front have 5000 hours of button punching, as long as they push the buttons in good sequence, read the NNC from left to right and top to bottom when crap hit the fan, and print all the ACARS messages they get during cruise.
And it will get better, I am sure! Someday, still in our lifetime, we will have ACARS controlled aircraft in which, should the pilots collapse in hypoxia or insist to land after half the wet runway length, an automatic MCP altitude swiveller will descend the plane to autoland or go around with thrust lever in idle, and all those sort of things. This will save more money for every one (Pax and CEO) and will make it still safer.
There will still be “pilots” sitting in front though as no freight forwarder would ever thrust his pallets to an airplanes with no one in front to sign the release (in case of…) for insurance; as for the passengers, if it is cheap enough, they would even board a plane without wings nor engine, as long as there is the booze available in the galley. Amazingly, they would be ready to pay more for the booze than for the flight ticket. Me, as soon as retire, I will travel by train and ship only. Time will not be a factor anymore.
I think we are not more unsafe today than 30 years ago, even if the wiz kids in front have 5000 hours of button punching, as long as they push the buttons in good sequence, read the NNC from left to right and top to bottom when crap hit the fan, and print all the ACARS messages they get during cruise.
And it will get better, I am sure! Someday, still in our lifetime, we will have ACARS controlled aircraft in which, should the pilots collapse in hypoxia or insist to land after half the wet runway length, an automatic MCP altitude swiveller will descend the plane to autoland or go around with thrust lever in idle, and all those sort of things. This will save more money for every one (Pax and CEO) and will make it still safer.
There will still be “pilots” sitting in front though as no freight forwarder would ever thrust his pallets to an airplanes with no one in front to sign the release (in case of…) for insurance; as for the passengers, if it is cheap enough, they would even board a plane without wings nor engine, as long as there is the booze available in the galley. Amazingly, they would be ready to pay more for the booze than for the flight ticket. Me, as soon as retire, I will travel by train and ship only. Time will not be a factor anymore.
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I’ll go back to Africa and fly one of those real airplanes with no computers, no GPS, no flight director, no FADEC, just wings and engines, and the stuff to move them the right way.
Come to Scotland, it's still being done, 7 days a week; with deftness, fluency and imagination. Fancy 20+ take offs and 20+ landings per day?
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Why's the body of that aircraft got a 90-degree bend in it just behind the pilot's seat?
Maybe the Scottish runways have a bend inthe middle?
Maybe the Scottish runways have a bend inthe middle?
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Bamra,
I would, with pleasure, accept your invitation; however, I'd rather fly in an area of the world where there is no acronyms like CAA-FAA-JAA-(F)OM(part A,B,C....Z), where one does not have to put his autograph on umpteen papers before closing doors, where one corrects one's mistakes (after surviving them) without having to hire a lawyer. Besides, no matter how much I like your hills and glenns, I prefer the bushes of the place where I was born.
Also, I do not think Scotland needs "pilotes sans frontieres" to fly "medecins sans frontieres" around bush clinics.
I would, with pleasure, accept your invitation; however, I'd rather fly in an area of the world where there is no acronyms like CAA-FAA-JAA-(F)OM(part A,B,C....Z), where one does not have to put his autograph on umpteen papers before closing doors, where one corrects one's mistakes (after surviving them) without having to hire a lawyer. Besides, no matter how much I like your hills and glenns, I prefer the bushes of the place where I was born.
Also, I do not think Scotland needs "pilotes sans frontieres" to fly "medecins sans frontieres" around bush clinics.
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LEMPER
I hope that your ACARS is more robust then - mine keeps stating "message incomplete"!!
The possibility is that the new a/c such as A380/B787/B747-8/A350 will be 'autoland as normal SOP's and manual landing as non-normal'.
CNS-ATM (CPDLC/GNSS/ADS-B) may bring the day of the non-voice/all-automatic flight closer, with manual practice in the Sim only. Then what price nostalgia?
I hope that your ACARS is more robust then - mine keeps stating "message incomplete"!!
The possibility is that the new a/c such as A380/B787/B747-8/A350 will be 'autoland as normal SOP's and manual landing as non-normal'.
CNS-ATM (CPDLC/GNSS/ADS-B) may bring the day of the non-voice/all-automatic flight closer, with manual practice in the Sim only. Then what price nostalgia?
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Why's the body of that aircraft got a 90-degree bend in it just behind the pilot's seat?
There's a concertina section in the fuselage which allows the pilot to rotate the whole forward section left or right to improve visibility for the frequent crosswind landings. The nosewheel is of course linked to the rear section. Operation is by a hand cranked pump below the seat (makes the pilot look a right ***ker!).
Talking of airmanship and flying skills....
Perhaps they do, but a strip south of the Liwa Oasis in Abu Dhabi was made on two adjoining pieces of flat plain, with a small gap between them. The problem was that one was 15 degrees different alignment than the other.
Only the DC3s could do it, so long as you got the tail up in the first half, kicked through the 15% bend on the rudder and then used the second half to lift off and avoid the dune at the far end with a 45 degree turn at 50ft.
It only got really exciting when the oil company (customer, always right) lied about the weight of core samples they had put on board.
Landing was a matter of touching down good and early, not doing wheelies, and checking the brakes carefully before the flight....
I bet the B777 isn't half as much fun.
Maybe the Scottish runways have a bend inthe middle?
Only the DC3s could do it, so long as you got the tail up in the first half, kicked through the 15% bend on the rudder and then used the second half to lift off and avoid the dune at the far end with a 45 degree turn at 50ft.
It only got really exciting when the oil company (customer, always right) lied about the weight of core samples they had put on board.
Landing was a matter of touching down good and early, not doing wheelies, and checking the brakes carefully before the flight....
I bet the B777 isn't half as much fun.
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The last time there could be a tiny little bit of fun in a 747 (777, 767, MD11, A330/340...) was the approach in Kai-Tak, and then it was a little more fun with the wind from the south west +/- 20 kts.
And they took even that away from us!
And they took even that away from us!
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How about the Carnarsie approach to JFK, with nos 1 & 2 "out" and an adverse x-wind?
(Bluddy "automatics" could never do that one - takes real "s&r")
(Do they still do Carnarsie?)
(Bluddy "automatics" could never do that one - takes real "s&r"
)(Do they still do Carnarsie?)
last time there could be a tiny little bit of fun in a 747 (777, 767, MD11, A330/340...) was the approach in Kai-Tak,
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How about the Carnarsie approach to JFK, with nos 1 & 2 "out" and an adverse x-wind?
(Bluddy "automatics" could never do that one - takes real "s&r")
(Do they still do Carnarsie?)
(Bluddy "automatics" could never do that one - takes real "s&r")
(Do they still do Carnarsie?)
And yep, they still do it today (The Canarsie AND punching stuff at minima.)
Then there was: Kano in Harmattan; Luanda at night without lights (shooting rebels), Kilimanjaro any time, Abudja still in construction, Kamina, Boende, Tashkend and Samarkand before ILS's....endless list of fun memories.
....Mais où sont les neiges d’antan…
(Flora, La Belle Romaine…FV)