B737 circle to land
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B737 circle to land
I need tips and tricks for B737 circle to land. I checked the Boeing flight training manual but it does not say much except flaps 15 and gear down.
Searched on pprune and found out that I should fly L/R 45 degrees for 35 seconds and then turn base. Is this valid information?
thanks,
Searched on pprune and found out that I should fly L/R 45 degrees for 35 seconds and then turn base. Is this valid information?
thanks,
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You probably need a wee bit of a downwind leg somewhere in there fella.
1. L/R 45' for 45 sec (+/- wind component)
2. Turn downwind(!)
3. Abeam landing threshold, start timing. (3 sec/100ft +/- wind) eg 1500' agl = 45 sec nil wind)
4. Turn base.
5. And Land.
There's quite a bit more to think about, but them's the bare bones. Good luck.
1. L/R 45' for 45 sec (+/- wind component)
2. Turn downwind(!)
3. Abeam landing threshold, start timing. (3 sec/100ft +/- wind) eg 1500' agl = 45 sec nil wind)
4. Turn base.
5. And Land.
There's quite a bit more to think about, but them's the bare bones. Good luck.
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yes I know 
Can I use VOR/LOC mode and V/S mode (or instead of V/S use CWS split mode). With this I will be able to use the autopilot during the circling. I am I right?
This is my first typerating and I have no jet experience so appreciate all the help you can give me.
I need to do this for my skills test.
(a)* approach to the authorised minimum circling approach altitude at the aerodrome in question in accordance with the local
instrument approach facilities in simulated instrument flight conditions; followed by:
(b) circling approach to another runway at least 90° off centreline from final approach used in item a), at the authorised
minimum circling approach altitude;
Remark: if a) and b) are not possible due to ATC reasons a simulated low visibility pattern may be performed
Can I use VOR/LOC mode and V/S mode (or instead of V/S use CWS split mode). With this I will be able to use the autopilot during the circling. I am I right?This is my first typerating and I have no jet experience so appreciate all the help you can give me.
I need to do this for my skills test.
(a)* approach to the authorised minimum circling approach altitude at the aerodrome in question in accordance with the local
instrument approach facilities in simulated instrument flight conditions; followed by:
(b) circling approach to another runway at least 90° off centreline from final approach used in item a), at the authorised
minimum circling approach altitude;
Remark: if a) and b) are not possible due to ATC reasons a simulated low visibility pattern may be performed
This is my first typerating and I have no jet experience so appreciate all the help you can give me.
I need to do this for my skills test.
I need to do this for my skills test.
If you flying a 737 with an ND, circle to land is very easy.
Prior to commencing the approach, either enter a 2nm final at 3deg, or put a 2nm fix ring around the RW threshold position.
A 2nm wide downwind works very well. If the ND is on a 10nm scale, the the base of the aircraft symbol (the triangle) is equivalent to 1nm, so estimate twice that width from the runway indication, and you have a 2nm wide downwind. If you have a 2nm fix off the RW threshold, you can also use that to estimate the downwind width.
Fly downwind at flap 5 and 1500'agl, extend gear and flap 15 when abeam the landing threshold if a visual approach, or otherwise gear down flap 15 if as a part of an instrument approach with circling.
Abeam the 2nm final point, extend landing flap, begin base turn and commence descent. Set the same thrust and pitch settings as you would use stabilised on an ILS. Complete landing checklist.
Aim to fly a standard 3deg descent rate (approx 800fpm should work out nicely at most weights). Because your total track miles until landing is approx 5nm (i.e. 2nm base width + 2nm final length + a little bit extra for the turn), descent from 1500 feet at 3 deg will work out perfectly. Adjust descent rate using the 2nm final point as a guide to descent rate, you should aim to fly over it at 600'agl.
If you need a bit more room to make sure you get stabilised, you can easily modify the procedure to a 3nm final, however if you are flying this as a circling approach, the 2nm final procedure makes it much easier to remain within the 4.2nm circling area.
Prior to commencing the approach, either enter a 2nm final at 3deg, or put a 2nm fix ring around the RW threshold position.
A 2nm wide downwind works very well. If the ND is on a 10nm scale, the the base of the aircraft symbol (the triangle) is equivalent to 1nm, so estimate twice that width from the runway indication, and you have a 2nm wide downwind. If you have a 2nm fix off the RW threshold, you can also use that to estimate the downwind width.
Fly downwind at flap 5 and 1500'agl, extend gear and flap 15 when abeam the landing threshold if a visual approach, or otherwise gear down flap 15 if as a part of an instrument approach with circling.
Abeam the 2nm final point, extend landing flap, begin base turn and commence descent. Set the same thrust and pitch settings as you would use stabilised on an ILS. Complete landing checklist.
Aim to fly a standard 3deg descent rate (approx 800fpm should work out nicely at most weights). Because your total track miles until landing is approx 5nm (i.e. 2nm base width + 2nm final length + a little bit extra for the turn), descent from 1500 feet at 3 deg will work out perfectly. Adjust descent rate using the 2nm final point as a guide to descent rate, you should aim to fly over it at 600'agl.
If you need a bit more room to make sure you get stabilised, you can easily modify the procedure to a 3nm final, however if you are flying this as a circling approach, the 2nm final procedure makes it much easier to remain within the 4.2nm circling area.
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Abeam the 2nm final point, extend landing flap, begin base turn and commence descent.
I say wait for landing flaps until you can see the PAPIs and you're happy with your path. Whether you use flaps 25 before turning base is up to you or your SOPs. I quite like it but company recently said we don't need to bother with it.
pigdog, I ain't saying you can't do it that way (I'm sure you do it very well), but it's best to keep it easy for someone new to the type.
P
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excellent information. thanks
"old,but not bold"...... No. I don't feel ready for the test since I have not started the simulator training part yet. But I want to be mentally prepared before the training starts and have all doubts sorted out. That saves time and brain capacity in the sim.
"old,but not bold"...... No. I don't feel ready for the test since I have not started the simulator training part yet. But I want to be mentally prepared before the training starts and have all doubts sorted out. That saves time and brain capacity in the sim.
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Surely you will get an extremely comprehensive briefing before having to do this in the sim for real.......
Before the sim on my last type (757), if someone had tried to explain a circling approach to me before the sim instructor did (and thus ready to receive this information), i would have wet myself. The sim is building blocks and by the time the test comes you will be ready for the test and the circling approach.....
Before the sim on my last type (757), if someone had tried to explain a circling approach to me before the sim instructor did (and thus ready to receive this information), i would have wet myself. The sim is building blocks and by the time the test comes you will be ready for the test and the circling approach.....
If you have a ND, after the LEVEL base turn to a 90* base track, turn final when the noodle is about 1/3 across the runway extension and keep the noodle on the rw ext with the bank angle limiter. Consider starting descent a bit early at a lower RoD to get the thing going down. It's easier to vary the RoD than overcome the inertia from level in a hurry. Know at what height you must disconnect the a/p and use it in HDG/VS until then. Naturally you will allow for the wind component on base by varying how far the noodle goes prior to turning final. Use the a/p to put you in the best possible position BUT be sure you are familiar with its habits.
BTW my mob take landing flap prior to turning base and go down wind @ F20 gear down (B744) as SOP for circling approach.
BTW my mob take landing flap prior to turning base and go down wind @ F20 gear down (B744) as SOP for circling approach.
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Obviously, I don’t know the specific rules about conducting circling approaches everywhere around the world. I can only speak about those in the US – and, from my perspective, they make sense – if one absolutely insists on conducting a circling approach in anything beyond a slow moving, very stable, and rather small airplane. Why? Because this particular procedure is designed to deliberately “push” the limits of both pilot and airplane. Circling approaches, when flown in the minimum conditions authorized, are not easily accomplished and should not, in my opinion, be performed without considerable practice and some recency of experience.
A circling approach is a visually referenced maneuver. The stuff that must be “referenced” visually is the airport, specifically the runway, on which you are going to land. It is for this reason that the US rules say, “Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach, a missed approach must be initiated.” This isn’t a rule simply to make the job of getting into a particular place a little more difficult. It’s designed to help ensure that if the circumstances that should exist don’t exist … you will be encouraged to abandon the approach in a safe manner – and not feel “pressured” to continue when you should not.
The idea that one can successfully maneuver an airplane, particularly at the altitudes and visibilities authorized for circling approaches, based on timing or instinct without maintaining visual contact with the airport is, in my opinion, very highly speculative – at best. Also, the idea that reconfiguring the airplane for landing during such low-altitude and low-airspeed situations that includes anything beyond selecting the next (and final) flap setting, is geometrically compounding an already difficult maneuver.
Yes, I am fully aware that there are many airports that are accessible ONLY through the completion of a circling approach – although, in today’s environment of relatively cheap and reasonably accurate alternatives, I wonder why they still exist to the extent that they do. I also recognize that confidently constructed circling approach procedures, flown by competent and relatively experience pilots, accurately following reasonable procedures regularly result in satisfactory landings from circling approaches. BUT … while using “gouges,” “short cuts,” or “tricks” may get you through the check, you may find that such an attitude quickly turns to "habit" and could lead to something significantly less rewarding when confronted with the “real deal.” So ... please … examine what you’re doing and why and if you cannot follow the requirements for safely completing a circling approach … go to your alternate.
A circling approach is a visually referenced maneuver. The stuff that must be “referenced” visually is the airport, specifically the runway, on which you are going to land. It is for this reason that the US rules say, “Whenever an identifiable part of the airport is not distinctly visible to the pilot during a circling maneuver at or above MDA, unless the inability to see an identifiable part of the airport results only from a normal bank of the aircraft during the circling approach, a missed approach must be initiated.” This isn’t a rule simply to make the job of getting into a particular place a little more difficult. It’s designed to help ensure that if the circumstances that should exist don’t exist … you will be encouraged to abandon the approach in a safe manner – and not feel “pressured” to continue when you should not.
The idea that one can successfully maneuver an airplane, particularly at the altitudes and visibilities authorized for circling approaches, based on timing or instinct without maintaining visual contact with the airport is, in my opinion, very highly speculative – at best. Also, the idea that reconfiguring the airplane for landing during such low-altitude and low-airspeed situations that includes anything beyond selecting the next (and final) flap setting, is geometrically compounding an already difficult maneuver.
Yes, I am fully aware that there are many airports that are accessible ONLY through the completion of a circling approach – although, in today’s environment of relatively cheap and reasonably accurate alternatives, I wonder why they still exist to the extent that they do. I also recognize that confidently constructed circling approach procedures, flown by competent and relatively experience pilots, accurately following reasonable procedures regularly result in satisfactory landings from circling approaches. BUT … while using “gouges,” “short cuts,” or “tricks” may get you through the check, you may find that such an attitude quickly turns to "habit" and could lead to something significantly less rewarding when confronted with the “real deal.” So ... please … examine what you’re doing and why and if you cannot follow the requirements for safely completing a circling approach … go to your alternate.
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Jimmy, you have a complete training programme to go through, at an appropriate time within that training a circling to land approach will probably be included, by this time you will have considerable familiarity with the handling characteristics and all you will need is the brief, just remember it is still a visual approach, stop worrying about it so soon, you are trying to run before you can walk, (on this particular aircraft), and everything that AirRabbit says is on the money.
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yes I know. But I want to stay ahead of the game. Circling to land is what I fear most. You guys have much more experience then me and you have probably your own "tips and tricks" how to tackle this difficult procedure.
MSFS + a 737 addon could be a way to sneak in some practise -- mind you the tactile clues will have little relation to the sim or a/c.
