Severe turbulence/mountain wave 10th March 2007
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
It is PAN PAN PAN "xxx Emergency Descent". If, as we are led to believe, the Spanish and French do not understand this emergency prefix, then make it "Mayday". Turn off track (helps the descent) and down you go. ATC can sort it out. The odds are stacked in favour of not hitting anything against losing control.
Do not linger in SEVERE turbulence waiting for Pedro or Louis to respond, or you will find yourself descending anyway, but out of control.
Do not linger in SEVERE turbulence waiting for Pedro or Louis to respond, or you will find yourself descending anyway, but out of control.
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garp
I will tell pilots to standby when needed, different pilots have different degrees of turbulence tolerance and I will certainly not loose separation because of some whimp feeling a bit uncomfortable.
Your attitude is idiotic.
Aircraft have bee destroyed by severe turbulence.
I will tell pilots to standby when needed, different pilots have different degrees of turbulence tolerance and I will certainly not loose separation because of some whimp feeling a bit uncomfortable.
Your attitude is idiotic.
Aircraft have bee destroyed by severe turbulence.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3
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From: Cotswolds, UK
An interesting debate. Severe turbulence is never pleasant. A few years ago I was flying south west from Dakar at night and entered severe turbulence that induced a 3000'/min ROD in a 4-engine heavy with max thrust applied. I would have dearly liked to have had an air traffic controller respond to my RT as they will in Europe - even if it is 'Standby'!
That said, I also had severe turbulence (mountain waves) east of the Rockies where the Mach went from 0.86 to 1.1 and down to 0.5 quicker than I can type it and all we could do was to hang on and attempt to fly attitude. Sadly, the US controller seemed less than interested - but fortunately we came out the other side fairly quickly.
In both cases, it is something I would prefer not to experience again - and night always makes it worse. However, whenever I find myself in an emergency or urgency situation I welcome the crisp and professional response of the UK controllers - in my experience they are generally superb.
That said, I also had severe turbulence (mountain waves) east of the Rockies where the Mach went from 0.86 to 1.1 and down to 0.5 quicker than I can type it and all we could do was to hang on and attempt to fly attitude. Sadly, the US controller seemed less than interested - but fortunately we came out the other side fairly quickly.
In both cases, it is something I would prefer not to experience again - and night always makes it worse. However, whenever I find myself in an emergency or urgency situation I welcome the crisp and professional response of the UK controllers - in my experience they are generally superb.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: this side of the hill
F3G, it seems you haven't read my complete post which continues as follows
"Whenever possible he will get descend, if he has to wait and cannot he should declare that he's unable to maintain level and emergency separation can be applied."
From your comment I understand that every a/c reporting turbulence has to be descended/climbed regardless of traffic or degree of turbulence. Good going. Again, just for the sake of clarity, when you declare that you are unable to maintain level you will be descended/climbed and emergency separation can be applied. Rest assured that any pilot asking for a level change due turbulence will get it but not at any price. As a final note you can also rest assured that we will try our very best to warn you about turbulence and try to plan you at different levels.
"Whenever possible he will get descend, if he has to wait and cannot he should declare that he's unable to maintain level and emergency separation can be applied."
From your comment I understand that every a/c reporting turbulence has to be descended/climbed regardless of traffic or degree of turbulence. Good going. Again, just for the sake of clarity, when you declare that you are unable to maintain level you will be descended/climbed and emergency separation can be applied. Rest assured that any pilot asking for a level change due turbulence will get it but not at any price. As a final note you can also rest assured that we will try our very best to warn you about turbulence and try to plan you at different levels.
Joined: Jun 2000
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Garp...
Perhaps your "some whimp..." understandably upset a few.
Having used Pan Pan at 6000 in the LHR TMA in a 767 and ended up in Stansted with an AOG a/c (following the QAR "G" record) I would have objected to being called a whimp.
Perhaps your "some whimp..." understandably upset a few.
Having used Pan Pan at 6000 in the LHR TMA in a 767 and ended up in Stansted with an AOG a/c (following the QAR "G" record) I would have objected to being called a whimp.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Hampshire
Would severe turbulence justify a mayday? Before anyone starts, I am not getting at the guy who posted that! Just wondering...
I would have thought a Pan would be more appropriate until actual bits of aeroplane start worrying the Pyrennean goats...
Am I talking rubbish?
I would have thought a Pan would be more appropriate until actual bits of aeroplane start worrying the Pyrennean goats...
Am I talking rubbish?
Last edited by Wannabe1974; 11th March 2007 at 21:29.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: Somehwere on the planet
I think it's the wimp comment that riled a few guys. ATC isn't going to clear you to a lower level without making sure you have seperation. We ask for lower or higher all the time due turbulence, most of the time we can wait for them to check with another sector for conflicting traffic. The guys on the ground don't know how bad it is, or that you need immediate descent. If its bad enough that you're about to run the airspeed indicator out the bottom and plummet from the sky declare the pan, or mayday..turn offtrack and down you go.
You can sort the rest out later and keep an eye on TCAS in the meantime. ATC won't give you a clearance, nor should they unless its safe and legal for them to do so. If you want down before that, do what we'd do in any other situation that warrants it, declare an emergency, take your own seperation into account and descend.
You can sort the rest out later and keep an eye on TCAS in the meantime. ATC won't give you a clearance, nor should they unless its safe and legal for them to do so. If you want down before that, do what we'd do in any other situation that warrants it, declare an emergency, take your own seperation into account and descend.
Joined: Nov 2006
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From: EGLL 270° 4DME
Just out of interest ... could someone outline what this severity of turbulence actually feels like? I'm imagining a scene where instruments can hardly be read, you'd immediately and violently depart your seat if not stapped in, wings flexing all over the place, or in other words like being violently shaken as if in a cocktail shaker...would appreciate an insight for future reference. Thanks.
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: uk
Controllers will always try to give you descent due to turbulence if you request it but there are a number of reasons why you may be told to standby, such as...
1. You're still in another sectors airspace (especially if you've just been transferred) and we need to co-ordinate descent with the previous sector before we can descend you.
2. There's other conflicting traffic which we need to get out of the way first.
3. We're busy trying to give descents to the other a/c experiencing the same turbulence. Weather and turbulence can really increase our workload. We will try to give you what you want as soon as we can as we all know what it's like to be in the back of a plane in turbulence but bear with us!
1. You're still in another sectors airspace (especially if you've just been transferred) and we need to co-ordinate descent with the previous sector before we can descend you.
2. There's other conflicting traffic which we need to get out of the way first.
3. We're busy trying to give descents to the other a/c experiencing the same turbulence. Weather and turbulence can really increase our workload. We will try to give you what you want as soon as we can as we all know what it's like to be in the back of a plane in turbulence but bear with us!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
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From: UK
Bandit - not necessarily - it could be severe mountain wave where the speed goes from stall warning with full power to limit speed with throttles closed. Descent is the only option. Luckily only seen that once. Also came close in a twin piston over the Scottish Highlands.
Not always a 'shaking'.
Not always a 'shaking'.
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 167
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From: EGLL 270° 4DME
Bandit - not necessarily - it could be severe mountain wave where the speed goes from stall warning with full power to limit speed with throttles closed. Descent is the only option. Luckily only seen that once. Also came close in a twin piston over the Scottish Highlands.
Not always a 'shaking'.
Not always a 'shaking'.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 324
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Many thanks to the southbound Speedbird who warned us about this whilst we were still in Algerian airspace (heading northbound). They went through the area at F310 and apparently had a very rough time. When we got there we were at F400 and it wasn't bad at all - a couple of minutes of "moderate", with speed excursions of +/- 10 knots - no sweat. Sometimes it pays to go high!!
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 626
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From: Brisbane
I know this might be a "how long is a piece of string" question, but i see most folk are wanting a decent. I only fly bugsmasher altitudes and getting away from mountain induced turbulence is usually by flying as high as you can. Obviously with very high terrain its different and maybe you are flying below the waves, is that what you are trying to achieve? how do you determine which is better climb or decend?
J
J
Joined: Feb 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,513
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From: England
The lower you go the thicker the air the more scope your wing has to avoid a stall or overspeed. To put it in stupidly simple terms.
I don't know of many that would prefer to climb closer to coffin corner to avoid turbulence...
Cheers
WWW
I don't know of many that would prefer to climb closer to coffin corner to avoid turbulence...
Cheers
WWW
