Night Deps - No SIDs, No Radar
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Night Deps - No SIDs, No Radar
Hello There.
Found myself in Marsa Alam the other day (not a bad place to go to - seemed nice enough) - RMF / HEMA, and was just wondering if I could ask a quick question.
Our FPL for the way back started as direct to the VOR at Luxor - the MSA in this direction (pretty much West) was something like 7300. There were no SIDs, and no Radar, and we departed back to LGW after dark.
Common sense dictated that as the airfield is virtually on the coast, going out to sea to get some altitude, then coming back over the coast again keeps everything nice and safe, and indeed that's what we did, but I was wondering about what you are legally supposed to do.
(As a quick caveat - this is me being devil's advocate, and I know that on the line common sense applies.)
Taking a generic case, let's say the MSA in the whole area is 4000 feet. If there's a SID, you follow that and that keeps you away from terrain. If you're visual you can look out of the window and make sure you don't bash in to anything, and if you're under Radar, the Radar chap will keep you safe. If you have none of the above, surely there's a chance that after takeoff you could get to 1000 or so, then turn towards the first point on the route, and fly in to a hill that's 3000 feet high.
Would be interested to hear people's views.
NW3
Found myself in Marsa Alam the other day (not a bad place to go to - seemed nice enough) - RMF / HEMA, and was just wondering if I could ask a quick question.
Our FPL for the way back started as direct to the VOR at Luxor - the MSA in this direction (pretty much West) was something like 7300. There were no SIDs, and no Radar, and we departed back to LGW after dark.
Common sense dictated that as the airfield is virtually on the coast, going out to sea to get some altitude, then coming back over the coast again keeps everything nice and safe, and indeed that's what we did, but I was wondering about what you are legally supposed to do.
(As a quick caveat - this is me being devil's advocate, and I know that on the line common sense applies.)
Taking a generic case, let's say the MSA in the whole area is 4000 feet. If there's a SID, you follow that and that keeps you away from terrain. If you're visual you can look out of the window and make sure you don't bash in to anything, and if you're under Radar, the Radar chap will keep you safe. If you have none of the above, surely there's a chance that after takeoff you could get to 1000 or so, then turn towards the first point on the route, and fly in to a hill that's 3000 feet high.
Would be interested to hear people's views.
NW3
NW3:
I'll get a brief overview of my understanding of departures, written with a mostly FAA TERPS view, but also recognizing PANS-OPS. This is one of the most complicated and difficult areas to cover.
IF there is an IFR approach to an airport, it is supposed to have a surveyed procedure to leave IFR with obstacle clearance. I say supposed because I am sure there are exceptions for the usual aviation reason--money. If there is a published SID, follow it and abide by the published required climb gradient. On the chart or at the bottom of the airport diagram Jepp chart, in either feet/nm or percent gradient. You still have to clear the departure end of runway at the screen height, climb to 400 feet and then follow the SID with the required gradient. This is normal ops, does not cover the OEI case, which is another can of worms. There are more competent people here to answer that one.
If there is NO published SID, it is an "omni-directional" departure (PANS-OPS term, random departure TERPS) which requires a 3.3% (i.e.200 feet/nm) climb until reaching the minimum IFR altitude. Just clear the departure end of runway at 5 meters (PANS-OPS, 35 feet TERPS), climb straight ahead to 400 feet and turn on course.
The FAA, in the absence of an ATC requirement for a SID, will generate an obstacle departure procedure, if the rocks require something more than 200 feet/nm. It could be simple, "climb to xxxx MSL before turning on course" or a textual SID with radials, climb in holding, etc. etc. I am not sure if PANS-OPS does anything like a ODP, just a SID.
All that said, and it is about 80 pages reduced to this, nothing beats having a VFR chart, an idea of where the rocks are and EGPWS--all on them for me. Passing it off to the controller is OK, if he agrees to take the same punishment you receive for flying into a mountain.
GF
I'll get a brief overview of my understanding of departures, written with a mostly FAA TERPS view, but also recognizing PANS-OPS. This is one of the most complicated and difficult areas to cover.
IF there is an IFR approach to an airport, it is supposed to have a surveyed procedure to leave IFR with obstacle clearance. I say supposed because I am sure there are exceptions for the usual aviation reason--money. If there is a published SID, follow it and abide by the published required climb gradient. On the chart or at the bottom of the airport diagram Jepp chart, in either feet/nm or percent gradient. You still have to clear the departure end of runway at the screen height, climb to 400 feet and then follow the SID with the required gradient. This is normal ops, does not cover the OEI case, which is another can of worms. There are more competent people here to answer that one.
If there is NO published SID, it is an "omni-directional" departure (PANS-OPS term, random departure TERPS) which requires a 3.3% (i.e.200 feet/nm) climb until reaching the minimum IFR altitude. Just clear the departure end of runway at 5 meters (PANS-OPS, 35 feet TERPS), climb straight ahead to 400 feet and turn on course.
The FAA, in the absence of an ATC requirement for a SID, will generate an obstacle departure procedure, if the rocks require something more than 200 feet/nm. It could be simple, "climb to xxxx MSL before turning on course" or a textual SID with radials, climb in holding, etc. etc. I am not sure if PANS-OPS does anything like a ODP, just a SID.
All that said, and it is about 80 pages reduced to this, nothing beats having a VFR chart, an idea of where the rocks are and EGPWS--all on them for me. Passing it off to the controller is OK, if he agrees to take the same punishment you receive for flying into a mountain.
GF
On the back of some US Jepp. 10-9 pages, even when no SID is published, there can be IFR/IMC climb/turn restrictions. For example, La Crosse (LSE), Birmingham (BHM), Harrisburg (MDT) etc.
In general, if a pilot is fortunate enough to have a high ceiling and good visibility, climbing only OVER lights on the ground might keep you safe near high hills, if you are at the Min. Safe Altitude (MSA) or higher for 25 miles or less then at a safe enroute altitude.
Descending near Albequerque, Bozeman, Las Vegas can be much safer if we state to the other pilot that we will remain over valley lights, especially on a sudden, unexpected go-around when LAS Approach Control
descends to slam a very fast 737 in front of you.
In general, if a pilot is fortunate enough to have a high ceiling and good visibility, climbing only OVER lights on the ground might keep you safe near high hills, if you are at the Min. Safe Altitude (MSA) or higher for 25 miles or less then at a safe enroute altitude.
Descending near Albequerque, Bozeman, Las Vegas can be much safer if we state to the other pilot that we will remain over valley lights, especially on a sudden, unexpected go-around when LAS Approach Control
descends to slam a very fast 737 in front of you.
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Night deps.-no SID`s, no radar.
A-3TWENTY.
You are making my blood run cold!
The point at which a SID begins can be several hundred feet below the point at which the missed approach begins.
With your procedure you have absolutely no guarantee of terrain clearance.
The original question is vitally important and absolutely must be covered
in SOP`s.
Fly over the lights!!!??? How about an engine failure? How about lights leading to a tunnel?
The correct procedure must be type and airport related but in the absence of light, radar, SID or reliable ATC perhaps the correct procedure is to stay on the ground.
You are making my blood run cold!
The point at which a SID begins can be several hundred feet below the point at which the missed approach begins.
With your procedure you have absolutely no guarantee of terrain clearance.
The original question is vitally important and absolutely must be covered
in SOP`s.
Fly over the lights!!!??? How about an engine failure? How about lights leading to a tunnel?
The correct procedure must be type and airport related but in the absence of light, radar, SID or reliable ATC perhaps the correct procedure is to stay on the ground.
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radio blackspot
Unless things have improved there was a large low level radio black spot to the south of the Cairo FIR, which was always a problem when on shortish sectors from the south towards Cairo. No Transponder code issued so 2000 a good option.
I think there is a certain need for clarification, especially in respect of the Brazilian incident, and this type of airspace problem, for the NON radio procedures for airways routes to be discussed.
This is also especially valid in the RF, when a flight plan that has been filed and acepted, actually does not relate to the the airways structure. No assume that the normal "non radio procedure" is to follow the filed plan, is certainly possible, the route filed, takes you down the wrong way of a one way airway....
Comments please guys...
Windy
I think there is a certain need for clarification, especially in respect of the Brazilian incident, and this type of airspace problem, for the NON radio procedures for airways routes to be discussed.
This is also especially valid in the RF, when a flight plan that has been filed and acepted, actually does not relate to the the airways structure. No assume that the normal "non radio procedure" is to follow the filed plan, is certainly possible, the route filed, takes you down the wrong way of a one way airway....
Comments please guys...
Windy
Pineridge--quite agree with you. The missed approach procedure is abso-bloody-lutely unacceptable method. The miss starts over the runway approach (maybe even short of the runway, in some terrain) and at least 200 feet above it. Unless you are departing in hovering helicopter, do NOT try this at home or away.
I tried to give an overview, but it is a very complex subject. Calling John Tullamarine and others in Pprune world.
GF
I tried to give an overview, but it is a very complex subject. Calling John Tullamarine and others in Pprune world.
GF
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The safest way would be to T/O, turn overhead, climb to the 25 mile msa before whatever your Aircraft's category dictates the circling distance to be (5.2miles for tfly 75/76s) then the airway or grid minimums before you reach the 25 mile radius.
Very simple get airborne, climb within the circling area to either the MSA or LSALT then depart overhead/on track. Used to do it all the time.
Alternatively you could do the DME arrival in reverse, a little bit tricky of you're not used to it.
Otherwise you can figure out you're own LSALT on a radial off the VOR (in your case over the ocean) with a ruler, pencil and a map! Climb out on that radial then once high enough set course.
Option 1 is usually the easiest and safest.
Alternatively you could do the DME arrival in reverse, a little bit tricky of you're not used to it.
Otherwise you can figure out you're own LSALT on a radial off the VOR (in your case over the ocean) with a ruler, pencil and a map! Climb out on that radial then once high enough set course.
Option 1 is usually the easiest and safest.
Seems that some chappies have never operated in a non-ATC (i.e. CTAF) non-radar environment.............
Neville someboby obviously has, and he is closest to the mark, however I would advise extreme caution in flying a DME arrival in reverse. Port Moresby in PNG had DME departures in days of old, and they were quite different to just being the reverse of the arrival steps. I vaguely recall something about different azimuth guidance tolerances when tracking away from a station, as opposed to tracking to a station.
Meanwhile back to the question.......
The first thing I would be looking at is the takeoff minimums on the applicabe chart. If it says night ops not permitted, then it is off to the hotel. If there is no hint of that, then the following would apply.......
First of all you need to determine whether the charts for the airport in question are designed to PANS OPS or TERPS criteria, as this will determine the radius of the circling area for your aircraft type. Then determine if there are any additional circling restrictions, such as a no circling area (this could potentially make departure impossible at night in some cases). Having determined this you can then depart, ensuring the aircraft is maintained within the circling area (and observing circling speed restrictions) until the MSA/LSALT is attained, and then proceed on course. You also need to consider your non-normal scenarios and ensure that at any point during your departure you can position yourself to either return visually or intercept the instrument approach, whilst satisfying obstacle clearance requirements.
Neville someboby obviously has, and he is closest to the mark, however I would advise extreme caution in flying a DME arrival in reverse. Port Moresby in PNG had DME departures in days of old, and they were quite different to just being the reverse of the arrival steps. I vaguely recall something about different azimuth guidance tolerances when tracking away from a station, as opposed to tracking to a station.
Meanwhile back to the question.......
The first thing I would be looking at is the takeoff minimums on the applicabe chart. If it says night ops not permitted, then it is off to the hotel. If there is no hint of that, then the following would apply.......
First of all you need to determine whether the charts for the airport in question are designed to PANS OPS or TERPS criteria, as this will determine the radius of the circling area for your aircraft type. Then determine if there are any additional circling restrictions, such as a no circling area (this could potentially make departure impossible at night in some cases). Having determined this you can then depart, ensuring the aircraft is maintained within the circling area (and observing circling speed restrictions) until the MSA/LSALT is attained, and then proceed on course. You also need to consider your non-normal scenarios and ensure that at any point during your departure you can position yourself to either return visually or intercept the instrument approach, whilst satisfying obstacle clearance requirements.
