pavlovian pilots
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pavlovian pilots
I have a basic understanding of pavolv and his theory, which is to say, I could tell you what it is, but don't ask me to go on mastermind.
I was flying with a captain recently who got me to thinking about a few things. I'll use him as an example, but I've flown with a few captains who do seem to show the same tendancies.
I fly as part of a multi crew operation, as most people on here do, using checklists, sops, and general operations as defined in the operations mannual. At all stages of the flight there are calls to make, actions to complete, chimes that go off, checklist to complete.
My question is this.
Is it possible that a captain(or an fo), who has been flying the same aircraft on the same routes for several years could be so used to the checklists, sops, aircraft and routes that he no longer has to think about what he is doing(ie it is secnd nature, like driving a car, or riding a bike) and is in fact not really paying full attention to the flying, but is mearly acting on a pavlovian response to everything.
For instance.
When starting an engine there are several calls to make during the start. When to put the fuel in, ignition, a rise in ITT, when the starter reverts to a generator etc. Sometimes I get the impression that there not paying that much attention, but are mearly trotting out the same words in the same order as they have done a thousand times before. Im sure if something happened, like a hot start, they would catch it in time. Everyone always catches it in the sim, but then everyone always expects it in the sim.
Checklists are another issue. the responses are mostly always the same. There not listening to the checklist there responding to calls, as the dog reponded to the bell, and knew there was food available.
Two examples from yesterday. Both in the taxi. the first one was thus. we were given taxi, i replyed, and the captian started taxying, he would have gone the wrong way had i not said something. he was setting off to go the normal way instead of the slightly different taxi we were give.
on the second occasion, he started heading for the main runway, instead of the short one, even though we had just had a thirty second conversation about it. generally we dont use the short. i don't know why, in this occasion it saved us time, and was into wind, as opposed to crosswind on the main.
another expample is the cruise. we can navigate through the terrestrial aids or the fms(apparently tea leaves arn't a recognised nav tool), everyone always uses the fms in lrn mode, and vors etc for approches. Ive seen it a few times now where captains have engaged long range nav, with the plan in the fms, and then forgotten about it. as if its a magical "it'll get me there" tool. I know this as they havent updated the naviads to back up the fms, nor have they updated there hsi's. They've left it in rose mode, with the long range nav pointing the way there going the heading bug (usually)on the current heading and the back up vor pointer pointing where ever they've left it.
yesterday i was flying along as pnf. we were crossing from airway to airway, so there was no vor which gave us a backup for the track we were on. but there was a vor for the next track on the airway we were joining. since the captian hadn't set anything up, i set it up, so that with my hsi in map mode it gave me a good picture. ten seconds later the captain changed the course on the vor i had set up so that.....it now showed nonsense on my map mode, but on his rose mode the two cdi's(for the lrn and the vor) both lined up on the same track. even though the vor cdi was showing a full fly left indication. not that that made him wonder why.
I think it was bacause on most legs we are on are on an airway and the vors and lrn aways show the same track. he wasn't interested in what he was seeing, but with lrn in, assuming ive put the right plan in, you'll get to where your going. and generally both pointers should have the same track on.
pavolv or too much experience. i don't know.
To qualify my remarks, i have no grudge to bare, and although the seemingly lack of attention did irritate me, im just interested in it from a psycological, crm, point of view. is this a recognised problem, and something airlines have to deal with. is it that some people do tend to stop paying attention on the fifth sector of the day, when there tired and want to go home. is it something i should mention to someone at work. Im a relativly experienced pilot with a few thousand hours, how do i stop myself doing this, or realise that i may be doing it in the first place.
ps, sorry about the length.
This thread may be barking up the wrong tree, I may have the wrong end of the stick, and maybe I should leaf well alone, but there you go.
I was flying with a captain recently who got me to thinking about a few things. I'll use him as an example, but I've flown with a few captains who do seem to show the same tendancies.
I fly as part of a multi crew operation, as most people on here do, using checklists, sops, and general operations as defined in the operations mannual. At all stages of the flight there are calls to make, actions to complete, chimes that go off, checklist to complete.
My question is this.
Is it possible that a captain(or an fo), who has been flying the same aircraft on the same routes for several years could be so used to the checklists, sops, aircraft and routes that he no longer has to think about what he is doing(ie it is secnd nature, like driving a car, or riding a bike) and is in fact not really paying full attention to the flying, but is mearly acting on a pavlovian response to everything.
For instance.
When starting an engine there are several calls to make during the start. When to put the fuel in, ignition, a rise in ITT, when the starter reverts to a generator etc. Sometimes I get the impression that there not paying that much attention, but are mearly trotting out the same words in the same order as they have done a thousand times before. Im sure if something happened, like a hot start, they would catch it in time. Everyone always catches it in the sim, but then everyone always expects it in the sim.
Checklists are another issue. the responses are mostly always the same. There not listening to the checklist there responding to calls, as the dog reponded to the bell, and knew there was food available.
Two examples from yesterday. Both in the taxi. the first one was thus. we were given taxi, i replyed, and the captian started taxying, he would have gone the wrong way had i not said something. he was setting off to go the normal way instead of the slightly different taxi we were give.
on the second occasion, he started heading for the main runway, instead of the short one, even though we had just had a thirty second conversation about it. generally we dont use the short. i don't know why, in this occasion it saved us time, and was into wind, as opposed to crosswind on the main.
another expample is the cruise. we can navigate through the terrestrial aids or the fms(apparently tea leaves arn't a recognised nav tool), everyone always uses the fms in lrn mode, and vors etc for approches. Ive seen it a few times now where captains have engaged long range nav, with the plan in the fms, and then forgotten about it. as if its a magical "it'll get me there" tool. I know this as they havent updated the naviads to back up the fms, nor have they updated there hsi's. They've left it in rose mode, with the long range nav pointing the way there going the heading bug (usually)on the current heading and the back up vor pointer pointing where ever they've left it.
yesterday i was flying along as pnf. we were crossing from airway to airway, so there was no vor which gave us a backup for the track we were on. but there was a vor for the next track on the airway we were joining. since the captian hadn't set anything up, i set it up, so that with my hsi in map mode it gave me a good picture. ten seconds later the captain changed the course on the vor i had set up so that.....it now showed nonsense on my map mode, but on his rose mode the two cdi's(for the lrn and the vor) both lined up on the same track. even though the vor cdi was showing a full fly left indication. not that that made him wonder why.
I think it was bacause on most legs we are on are on an airway and the vors and lrn aways show the same track. he wasn't interested in what he was seeing, but with lrn in, assuming ive put the right plan in, you'll get to where your going. and generally both pointers should have the same track on.
pavolv or too much experience. i don't know.
To qualify my remarks, i have no grudge to bare, and although the seemingly lack of attention did irritate me, im just interested in it from a psycological, crm, point of view. is this a recognised problem, and something airlines have to deal with. is it that some people do tend to stop paying attention on the fifth sector of the day, when there tired and want to go home. is it something i should mention to someone at work. Im a relativly experienced pilot with a few thousand hours, how do i stop myself doing this, or realise that i may be doing it in the first place.
ps, sorry about the length.
This thread may be barking up the wrong tree, I may have the wrong end of the stick, and maybe I should leaf well alone, but there you go.
Join Date: Jun 2005
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conditioned responses is what keep you alive...not just in aviation so yes they should be Pavlovian with certain things..and no they don't have to read each guage to the limit of it's accuracy that's counterproductive
when you scan you don't say let me read the ASI then Look at the DG then Look at the ALT then look at the VSI then look at the AI then lookt at the FF then............... you just do it...I hope
Happy Contrails
rhov
when you scan you don't say let me read the ASI then Look at the DG then Look at the ALT then look at the VSI then look at the AI then lookt at the FF then............... you just do it...I hope
Happy Contrails
rhov
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Homer_J and rhovsquared,
I read you both loud and clear.
Homer_J,
It's not, if your experience is true and anything to go by.
I hope there will be some more informed comments, without doggy jokes.
rhovsquared,
I agree with your description about scanning. But I think what Homer_J is saying, "I'm seeing what I think I should be seeing, so it's OK", while it isn't.
I read you both loud and clear.
Homer_J,
This thread may be barking up the wrong tree
I hope there will be some more informed comments, without doggy jokes.
rhovsquared,
I agree with your description about scanning. But I think what Homer_J is saying, "I'm seeing what I think I should be seeing, so it's OK", while it isn't.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Everyone always catches it in the sim, but then everyone always expects it in the sim.
how do i stop myself doing this, or realise that i may be doing it in the first place.
I still catch myself responding to a checklist without checking what it is I'm responding too, so I stop, go back and then check it...twice, just in case!
After all that I still salivate at the sound of the call bell...even though it is the same as the emergerncy call bell only slightly quieter.
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Ah, I see [done by all] like now, I call that self fulfilling prophesy, Gauges all green...wait no they ain't perhaps that was a factor in that recent Comair crash...I guess we all do need to pay attention..
as far as Pavlov well I was thinking of something like an ED where, O2 PF, O2 PNF, pax OX, on thrust levers closed, speed brakes out, ATC informed..........
Keep an Eye On the VSI And Don't Let the Airplane Go Downhill D.P.D
rhov
perhaps that was a factor in that recent Comair crash...I guess we all do need to pay attention..as far as Pavlov well I was thinking of something like an ED where, O2 PF, O2 PNF, pax OX, on thrust levers closed, speed brakes out, ATC informed..........
Keep an Eye On the VSI And Don't Let the Airplane Go Downhill D.P.D
rhov
Last edited by rhovsquared; 20th Sep 2006 at 20:35. Reason: spellin' to appease reentry :}
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Mr. Simpson (sorry).It is a well known phenomenon of the automatic checklist response without actually checking what you are saying 'check' to. The defence against this is two pronged. 1. Do your job. 2. Use tactile reminders and point at the relevant instruments when saying the words.
btw can we all check our spelling before posting. It upsets me.
And I know you know better, Rhov!
btw can we all check our spelling before posting. It upsets me.
And I know you know better, Rhov!
