250Kt Speed Limits

[captainpaddy]

Hello all,

Had an interesting discussion recently with a colleague regarding standard speed restrictions. It most places I know of, 250Kts below 10,000' would be the standard restrcitions for departure and arrival. Special cases are shown on the SID or STAR charts.

Tenerife Sur for example shows 250Kts below 15,000' on it's STAR charts. However, no departure speed restriction is shown on the SID charts, or any other chart for that matter. I would have expected that where no speed restriction is shown on the chart, that 250 below FL100 would apply. But, the A320 MCDU shows the 250Kt below FL150 restriction after loading any SID for that airport. The same occurs for many other airports (Spain - 250 below FL120, etc, etc...). In my company, everyone seems to accept that the MCDU must be right and complies with the restriction. Obviously this is the safest option, but it may not be the correct one.

Does anyone now where to find information confirming what speed restrictions apply in these cases? I assume the AIP for the country in question is the likely source, however I don't see how I'll get my hands on one!

Any info at all would be appreciated!

[banana head]

Yup the AIP for each country would be your best bet.

You could also try comparing SID/STAR plates produced by different providers to see if others have picked out the differences (i.e. compare Jepp with Aerad/ Navtech etc)

Don't forget that the 250/FL100 or 250/FL120 etc is coded into the FMS/ FMGS database by honeywell/ Jepp - and they do occasionally code something incorrectly. Thats why you are required to cross check a SID/STAR/ APPROACH once selected for the correct tracks/ distances/ altitude & speed restrictions in comparison with the paper plate.

I've found numerous 'typos' in our database, particularly after a 28day reload.....

[captainpaddy]

Cheers banana head.

I agree cross-checking is necessary, but that's sort of what has brought about the discussion. The SID plates in question show no speed restrictions at all.

I'll have to try to get my hands on some Aerad plates as you suggest, as we are using Jeppe's. Or, does anyone else use Aerads to Spain/Canaries and is there a speed restriction listed for the SIDs????

[selfin]

AIP

http://www.eurocontrol.int/ead/publi...EAD_Basic.html

[captainpaddy]

Sorry Selfin,

What am I looking at there??

[DC-8]

Originally Posted by captainpaddy

I assume the AIP for the country in question is the likely source, however I don't see how I'll get my hands on one!

Hi,

This is the Spanish AIP. You must register to have access.

http://www.aena.es/csee/Satellite?ci...=1&c=Page&MO=2

[411A]

Incredibly simple, chaps.
Just comply, whatever the published speed restrictions are, like it or not.
It really is that simple.
Rocket science it ain't.

If it's in the FMS, what is the harm?
Making a Federal case out of this serves no useful purpose.

[CamelhAir]

Just comply, whatever the published speed restrictions are, like it or not.

I think the whole point of the question is that he is unsure as to whether there is a restriction published.

If it's in the FMS, what is the harm?

The harm is that the FMS can be WRONG. Blindly following the FMS without any cross-checking will sooner or later lead you into trouble.

[Penworth]

We use Lido charts and there is no mention of the speed restriction on the SID charts. However in the departure information on the initial AOI plates it does mention the 250kt below FL150 "unless operational requirements demand a higher speed". Don't know if there's something similar on Jepps/Aerad plates.

PW

[Willit Run]

Folks, the other thing to think about is, Birdstrikes; Windows are are only designed to take a bird at 250 knots, window heat on. So, think about zinging along at 335 knots at 5000 feet through a gaggle of ducks.

[Tee Emm]

Willeet run. Dead correct. In Australia high speed climb and descents below 10,000 ft are encouraged by ATC and crews often ask for high speed and are given it. Despite recent warnings in the Australian flight safety publication "Flight Safety Australia" of the dangers of high speed bird strike, the major domestic airlines disregard the potential for high energy damage and in fact it is probable that many airline pilots are ignorant of these dangers of high energy bird strikes otherwise they would be cautious about accepting or requesting high ssspeed below 10. Lawyers would have a field day if someone got hurt. CASA (the Australian regulatory authority) turn a blind eye as they tend to react only after the event. There is something of the show off with some pilots perceiving themselves as aces at taking the opportunity of a 320 knot climb or descent below 10 and especially the thrill (?) of seeing how fast you can hold high speed nearing the approach before someone gives in and pulls the speedbrake and has to buy the drinks later.

[mbcxharm]

I don't think anyone's suggesting zinging along at 335kt at 5000ft. We just want to know if we can accelerate to our optimum climb speed before reaching FL120, FL150 or whatever. Having flown the same aircraft type with 2 different companies over the last year it was interesting to note that one had the aforementioned restriction in the FMS and the other does not.

[captainpaddy]

Interesting posts guys, thanks.

DC-8, thanks for the link. That's exactly what I was looking for. Interesting looking through it, that it doesn't mention departure speed restrictions for TFS. It does show an area to the south of the island which has a requirement for 250Kts below FL150 though, so that might be a reason for the restriction in the FMGC. The AIP shows 250 Kts below FL120 for AGP, but the Jeppes only show it for the SID's, but FMGC shows it for arrival and departure.

For a couple of the other posters, my reason for asking the question in the first place is that I don't want to be one of those lazy pilots that has no pride in their level of understanding. The idea of "it's in the FMGC so what's the harm" is a dangerous one in my mind, no matter how trivial the problem. The PUMAL3T arrival to BCN is a prime example. There are contradictions on the Jeppe plate such as points where the requirement is to be at FL110 or below, despite the fact that the minimum published level up to that point is FL110, so you can't descend below 110 till past that point. If you follow what is in the box for this particular STAR (at least with the version we're using), you will be below the minimum altitudes at many points during the arrival. Considering that this STAR begins over the pyrenees, I think it's pretty relevant. A blind faith will lead you up the garden path.

I agree with those of you that have mentioned the bird strike risk. It certainly has to be taken into account. However, not wanting to get too far off the point, where have you seen that windshields are designed for 250Kts strikes only?? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I feel it's just another one of those myths that are so rife in aviation. Is it 250 kts for a swan flying at 40 kts directly towards you??? Or just the south end of northbound duck? Are we just blindly believeing what we hear without any evidence to back it up. Tee Emm has mentioned the Australian initiative already, so perhaps I am just showing my ignorance.

mbcxharm hit the nail on the head. I would like to operate as efficiently as possible, so if I can get to optimum speeds earlier then I will, all other risk factors taken into account.

[Tee Emm]

250 Knots below 10,000 ft with inoperative windscreen heating is a Boeing restriction on all 737's. It is there for a reason and one assumes it is because of bird strike danger with a cold windscreen and therefore less rigidity. If Boeing is worried about bird strikes below 10, then so should we all...

[Pilot Pete]

Yeah, but with operative window heat on the 737 there is not maximum speed (a limitation) for birdstrike purposes published by Boeing, whereas on the 757 it is 313kts below 8000' (if my memory serves me correctly). So is it safe to assume that Boeing are NOT concerned about birdstrikes at high speed below 10,000' in the 737? Or is it just that no test has been carried out therefore no exact data is available (highly unlikely for certification purposes I would guess).

PP

[captainpaddy]

This is where I think we lose the run of ourselves a little. With operative equipment, most machines have no limitation. It must then be assumed that birds and windscreens can mix at high speeds without catastrophic results.

Excuse me while I get on my soap box;

This is knid of why I'm asking about the 250kt restrictions at certain airfields. Most of the answers I have received have been similar. "I don't know if 250Kts to FL150 applies, but it says it in the box so.......". The "We should fly 250Kts anyway cos it's safer for birdstrikes" idea is laughable because I'm sure all of you will accelerate to your enroute climb speed immediately if ATC cancels the speed restriction as you're climbing through 1500 feet. So it begs the question of why mention it at all?? The birdstrike thing is a method of avoiding the question of whether we can accelerate on our own. Avoidance which pride requires since you don't know the answer.

Off soap box:

Anyhoo, anyone got any other ideas about where to get info on speed restrictions where none are published on SID and/or STAR charts?

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by captainpaddy

Anyhoo, anyone got any other ideas about where to get info on speed restrictions where none are published on SID and/or STAR charts?

Sure. In the US, FAR 91.117
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).
(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

[Brunitron]

Regarding maximum speeds on TFS departures

Is written on the Spanish AIP for that airport not to exceed 250 kts up to FL60. Based on that, we could exceed that speed over FL60 legally, albeit itīs not recomended due to a possible bird strike.
This restriccion is also included on EAG charts (first white page for TFS).

[captainpaddy]

Thanks Brunitron,

That's the way I had read the entry also. The restriction to FL60 is in the Jeppes also, but I have seen it written for other airfields which also show 250kt to FL100 on a SID chart aswell. I suppose that the FL100 limit applies while on the SID but the FL60 limit applies otherwise.

Just regarding the birdstrike thing. I have never seen any recommendations in Airbus manuals. Do any other types show restrictions or recommendations in their flight manuals regarding maximum speeds for bird hazards? (other than the 757)

AirRabbit,

If only all other countries followed the US example of clear and concise legislation published in a single volume!!

[ITCZ]

Originally Posted by captainpaddy

This is where I think we lose the run of ourselves a little. With operative equipment, most machines have no limitation.

Thank you, captainpaddy.

My aircraft, designed and built as a Douglas aeroplane and sold/supported by Boeing, has this to say in FCOM Limitations...

The windshield anti-ice must be on and checked for all flight operations
except as follows:
– Do not operate windshield anti-ice or anti-fog on the affected windshield
if windshield is cracked.
– Do not exceed 315 KIAS below 10,000 feet when windshield heat is
inoperative on any windshield.
– Cracked windshield operating limits below 10,000 feet:
– Outer glass of Captain’s, center, or First Officer’s windshield: Under
315 KIAS
– Inner glass of Captain’s, center, or First Officer’s windshield: Under 235
KIAS

... so quite clearly, with operative equipment I am not putting myself or my craft "outside the envelope" by climbing or descending at 340 KIAS should I so choose.

We will never satisfy those armchair test pilots that tell us "ah, that will kill you!" but the manufacturer says you can do it.

The only transport category jet that I know of that has a 250KIAS birdstrike restriction is the BAe146, and that is below 8000', not A100/FL100.

In the Australian context, 250/10000 is only applicable in "D" "E" and "G" airspace, and in STAR where a speed restriction is noted on the chart. Our Jepp/Honeywell units put the 250/10000 restriction in automatically for all climbs and descents because they do not have the dimensions and categories of airspace coded into the database.

It is up to the professional pilot to be aware of what sort of airspace he/she is flying through.

We have these wonderful boxes that calculate Econ speeds to keep the beancounters happy. Unfettered by 250/10000, the FMS will always set a speed target higher than 250KIAS until it is time to configure for landing. Basic aerodynamics. 250/10000 is purely an ATC/traffic issue.

IMHO those that hesitate when one asks them to "Cancel speed restriction" are hesitating due to a lack of knowledge and situational awareness, not a concern over birdstrike protection.

Its CAVOK at all ports tomorrow, so I will be clean shortly after 3000 AGL and climb at 320 into .78 and fly .78 into 320 until 9 miles to touchdown. Why slow down before the aeroplane needs to, unless the traffic/weather/situational awareness dictates otherwise? Wasting your company's money if you are.