Drawing a nice circuit into the FMS.
Thread Starter
Drawing a nice circuit into the FMS.
Is it really true that some airline pilots actually "draw" a circuit on the MAP mode, with bearings and distances depicting turning downwind, base and final and inserting speeds and heights to suit? Then turn to the admiring PNF and say "Wotcha think of that No 2?" And No 2 either shrugs his shoulders and sez whatever turns you on Cappie, or looking to future promotion, applaudes the artist with "oh well done my Kapitan - it's beautiful.
Pity then about the Picasso of the FMS who spent the whole descent lovingly caressing a right hand circuit into the MAP complete with ETA's as well. Unfortunately it should have been a normal left circuit. Easy fixed sez the Maestro of the MAP we'll simply fly a right circuit on Vnav and LNav - there ain't anyone around to see us...And he did, too.
I know MAP displays are magic - situational awareness and all that jazz, but what is it about the FMS in big jets that compels the addicts to flash the digits over the CDU from flaps up to short final? Was this addiction to pressing the computer keys envisaged by the designers of these marvellous electronic wonders. Is it just boredom that compels pilots to draw pretty things on their computer screens or idly play with all the different buttons on the CDU like a teenager channel flicking a TV?
Does anyone ever put their hands on the thrust levers and control wheels and actually fly the aeroplane into the circuit without the aid (?) of a kaleidoscope of rabbits feet trails, green dashes, fixes and waypoints, dotted circles and of course the magic magenta yellow brick road on the MAP? And all for what? Is it the feeling of wonder as the aircraft gently slides into the circuit on autopilot and it's all your own work?
One FCTM has this to say about the automatics and I presume this must include CDU entries: Varied levels of automation are available. The pilot decides what level of automation to use to achieve these goals by selecting the level that provides the best increase in safety and reduced workload. Spending time in a descent drawing a circuit to land certainly doesn't seem like reducing workload to me. Unless you are a computer screen addict of course.
Pity then about the Picasso of the FMS who spent the whole descent lovingly caressing a right hand circuit into the MAP complete with ETA's as well. Unfortunately it should have been a normal left circuit. Easy fixed sez the Maestro of the MAP we'll simply fly a right circuit on Vnav and LNav - there ain't anyone around to see us...And he did, too.
I know MAP displays are magic - situational awareness and all that jazz, but what is it about the FMS in big jets that compels the addicts to flash the digits over the CDU from flaps up to short final? Was this addiction to pressing the computer keys envisaged by the designers of these marvellous electronic wonders. Is it just boredom that compels pilots to draw pretty things on their computer screens or idly play with all the different buttons on the CDU like a teenager channel flicking a TV?
Does anyone ever put their hands on the thrust levers and control wheels and actually fly the aeroplane into the circuit without the aid (?) of a kaleidoscope of rabbits feet trails, green dashes, fixes and waypoints, dotted circles and of course the magic magenta yellow brick road on the MAP? And all for what? Is it the feeling of wonder as the aircraft gently slides into the circuit on autopilot and it's all your own work?
One FCTM has this to say about the automatics and I presume this must include CDU entries: Varied levels of automation are available. The pilot decides what level of automation to use to achieve these goals by selecting the level that provides the best increase in safety and reduced workload. Spending time in a descent drawing a circuit to land certainly doesn't seem like reducing workload to me. Unless you are a computer screen addict of course.
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You are right. I flew with a captain that used to draw circuits for circling approach. First time he did that i thought we would get out not from the aerodrome area but from the planet. Anyway he was so proud of him.
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Yes, looking out of the windoe is always the best option. If you see something. Going into CFU at night and doing the circling RWY 17 in marginal weather with rain, having previously typed in the circling track is of really great help. Since interestingly at the charter destinations most of the patterns are RH, (TFS ACE FUE LPA RHO HER..) especially at night over the water itīs a nice tool when LH is PF on the visual.
If it takes the whole descent to typ in three bearing/distances, then the problem might have some other reasens.
If it takes the whole descent to typ in three bearing/distances, then the problem might have some other reasens.
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@ topic starter: Yes it is true in our operations...
Recently, I flew with the chief pilot of our company and upon reaching the homebase destination, he expected me (rookie B737 driver) to draw the expected radar vectors* in the MAP. He was kinda frustrated that I entered the full arrival procedure in the FMC.
I think to have expected radar vectors drawn in the MAP to increase situational awareness is great but at the same time I believe I should rely more on basic navigation skills especially at this point in my career.
*downwind/base
Recently, I flew with the chief pilot of our company and upon reaching the homebase destination, he expected me (rookie B737 driver) to draw the expected radar vectors* in the MAP. He was kinda frustrated that I entered the full arrival procedure in the FMC.
I think to have expected radar vectors drawn in the MAP to increase situational awareness is great but at the same time I believe I should rely more on basic navigation skills especially at this point in my career.
*downwind/base
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Experienced captain with 3000 hours command B737-200 joined Qantas as second officer circa 1991 and completed B747 type rating successfully. During a leg into Sydney as second officer the captain asked him to draw a circuit on the FMS complete with expected downwind and base leg turning points, distances, speeds and altitudes. He told the captain he had not been taught this during simulator training and that he simply did not know how to do it the way the captain wanted it.
The captain then wrote a report to management saying the second officers FMS knowledge was deficient and recommended further training on FMS. The second officer argued his case that the FMS was never meant to be used for frivolous pictures on a screen. He was given the option to resign after questioning company "procedure". His 3000 hours command on international operations in the 737-200 meant exactly zero to Qantas who obviously saw that so called FMS "skills" were infinately more valuable than hard won hands on experience.
The captain then wrote a report to management saying the second officers FMS knowledge was deficient and recommended further training on FMS. The second officer argued his case that the FMS was never meant to be used for frivolous pictures on a screen. He was given the option to resign after questioning company "procedure". His 3000 hours command on international operations in the 737-200 meant exactly zero to Qantas who obviously saw that so called FMS "skills" were infinately more valuable than hard won hands on experience.
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It's a fact that inexperienced pilots refer more to information (like the FMC) than experienced pilots when performing the same task.
For me starting on the 737NG, it's been a great help to "draw" circuits and expected radar vectoring approaches. For a visual approach, it's great when flying manually with F/D off, to be able to scan the V-NAV path, so you have a better clue about your distance vs. altitude during the approach. Furthermore it helps you flying impressive "glide in" visual approach, without adding thrust before maybe a 1000' AGL. Because of the fact that the V-NAV path is the aircrafts idle descent path.
For radar vectoring approaches, it gives you a descent planning which is more realistic and therefore a save of fuel costs. So instead of flying around in 2000' using a lot of thrust, like I see a lot of people do, you can put yourself quite perfect for a glide in approach. It also gives you decent with a lower chance of the use of speed brakes.
For me starting on the 737NG, it's been a great help to "draw" circuits and expected radar vectoring approaches. For a visual approach, it's great when flying manually with F/D off, to be able to scan the V-NAV path, so you have a better clue about your distance vs. altitude during the approach. Furthermore it helps you flying impressive "glide in" visual approach, without adding thrust before maybe a 1000' AGL. Because of the fact that the V-NAV path is the aircrafts idle descent path.
For radar vectoring approaches, it gives you a descent planning which is more realistic and therefore a save of fuel costs. So instead of flying around in 2000' using a lot of thrust, like I see a lot of people do, you can put yourself quite perfect for a glide in approach. It also gives you decent with a lower chance of the use of speed brakes.
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Continuing the Australian theme, arriving at Brisbane we always entered into the FMC the radar vectors that we thought would happen rather than leave in the flight-planned route to the BN that never happens.
Inevitably one day we followed the "vectors" by mistake, and needless to say ATC barbequed us in a way that only Australian ATC can do. I still think that we were deliberately trapped by ATC, but that's not the point.
I believe that the FMC is best programmed for what is likely, otherwise stupid things happen like you end up overhead Budapest at 20000ft. But you have to be SO careful.
Inevitably one day we followed the "vectors" by mistake, and needless to say ATC barbequed us in a way that only Australian ATC can do. I still think that we were deliberately trapped by ATC, but that's not the point.
I believe that the FMC is best programmed for what is likely, otherwise stupid things happen like you end up overhead Budapest at 20000ft. But you have to be SO careful.
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I think "...."'s post kind of summarizes the approach that many take these days to using the FMS to plan approaches. So much work and planning may go into designing a nice little picture, when ATC's plans never took into account yours.
As far as a visual approach, V/B is a much better tool for learning the profile to an idle thrust 3 degree approach. Much better to instill this early on in the apprenticeship of learning the jet profile, harder to convince pilots of this benefit later on.
As far as someone planning for a "circling approach" using the FMS, well, do the search on this forum about "circling approaches" and the lateral limits etc. It was an eye-opener for me (especially TERPS), and FMS self designed approaches are not the place...
As far as a visual approach, V/B is a much better tool for learning the profile to an idle thrust 3 degree approach. Much better to instill this early on in the apprenticeship of learning the jet profile, harder to convince pilots of this benefit later on.
As far as someone planning for a "circling approach" using the FMS, well, do the search on this forum about "circling approaches" and the lateral limits etc. It was an eye-opener for me (especially TERPS), and FMS self designed approaches are not the place...
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I don't know too many guys that can accurately "see" exactly 4.2nm out the window for cat C circling area.
If you can quickly put it in the box, why not? every bit of info helps. You just don't know what distractions can happen that draw your attention inside more. Info outside + info inside = best.
If you can quickly put it in the box, why not? every bit of info helps. You just don't know what distractions can happen that draw your attention inside more. Info outside + info inside = best.
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I love to use the feature if available in the FMS to draw the extended centreline for visual approaches. Then it may tell you the distance to centreline and program the outer marker as an addition and it even tells you the distance to go 
Apart from that it depends on workload and a tradeoff of benefit vs. ease of use. Depends on the mood
Apart from that it depends on workload and a tradeoff of benefit vs. ease of use. Depends on the mood
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Originally Posted by jonny dangerous
For the circling, I simply use the FIX page and draw the ring...not building the approach per se. Not that I circle that often...
PP
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I have a question for anyone that can oblige and please pardon my ignorance...
Can some one possibly remind me the exact way to join a visual circuit, legally, from every direction?
e.g R/W36, right hand circuit.
Now if i'm coming from N, E, S or W how would i join?
i remember something about circleing over head the middle of the R/W or am i mixing this up with something...
Please remind me, it's been sooo long
.
Can some one possibly remind me the exact way to join a visual circuit, legally, from every direction?
e.g R/W36, right hand circuit.
Now if i'm coming from N, E, S or W how would i join?
i remember something about circleing over head the middle of the R/W or am i mixing this up with something...
Please remind me, it's been sooo long
.
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Pilots with experience do not spend much time with the FMC doing that sort of thing. Had a copilot on a 757 put in the whole MEX engine out emergency procedure on the FMC for every takeoff. Finally told him if we followed it we would cut all the corners of the figure 8 pattern and be illegal so why are you doing it? Too much work and just more confusion, especially with all that route 2 garbage. Check Airmen are the worst.
