heels on the floor?

[bonzo157]

hi.

a question about where you put your heels during various phases of flight.. (especially during takeoffs and landings..)

putting them on the floor makes it easier for rudder control, especially for an engine out training session in a simulator.(or actual!!!)

(but on the other hand, during takeoff, what if the autobrakes should fail??)

any feedback will be appreciated...

[Rainboe]

Use this as a mantra: "Keep your heels on the floor unless you are braking for landing, or parking!" Period. No discussion OK? Having sat next to someone who twisted themselves in their seat so they could apply lots of rudder in a strong crosswind take-off, and in fact applied lots of asymetric braking instead, and blowing 4 tyres on a 747 after an abandoned take-off, there should be no discussion. At times of high workload, if you lift those feet up, you will press brakes without realising it.

[oldebloke]

Rainbow,do you agree the Captn should have his feet near the brakes for the Reject/abort,or are you relying on Autobrake to initiate the stop..
I believe Boeing has stipulated that a FULL manual braking exceeds autobrake effort??
Cheers

[oldebloke]

The only times we HAD heels on the floor was performing 'Power backs'from the gate(B727/Dc9)

[Empty Cruise]

Oldbloke,

As far as the 73 goes, RTO = max brake pressure, no deceleration compensation. Can't beat it - unless it doesn't kick in, of course

Empty

[Rainboe]

I think you keep yer feet totally on the floor on take-off. With all the bouncing around, you're going to hit the brakes inadvertently sometimes. If you abandon, with selecting idle and full reverse, you aren't going to get the brakes on as quick as autobrakes. Autobrake will give you full braking whereas whilst you are struggling to keep straight and cancel reverse if you start drifting, I'd be very surprised if you coould sustain maximum manual brakes. Make life easy- leave autobrakes on and take over when ready. But I have seen someone apply brake on take-off through lifting their foot up (nobody was aware at the time), and lost those tyres as a result

[oldebloke]

OLD School I guess Rainbow,At the end (66-03)I was on the A320,and advocated the use of Auto brakes for the Reject(YOW high weight,rejected for the cargo door warning at 96knots,stopped on a dime .Brake temps at 480),but I cringe a bit at not having the feet near the brakes in case the magic didn't work the day you need them..Hard to explain to the CP..Other than that I'm it total agreement re their initial efficiency

[earnest]

On some aircraft like the A320 series if you have an engine failure before 72 kts it can be difficult to stay on the runway without the prompt use of differential braking. The autobrake will not have activated and full rudder is not too effective at these speeds. It’s an interesting demonstration in the sim.
Put your feet where the manual tells you to put them. Modern pedals tend to be better designed than some fitted to the older types. I follow Rainboe's logic and can’t argue with his experiences on the 747 - some older military types had similar problems - but I put my feet fully on the pedals. I still have my old habit of applying steering input with my heels, though.

[18-Wheeler]

Boeing highly recommend that the pilot has his/her feet completely on the pedals for takeoff. ".... unless you have very large feet so you can keep your heels on the floor and still work the brakes."
(Something worded like that anyway)

[AerocatS2A]

What's wrong with puting your heels on the floor and then IF an abort is required, pop them up onto the brakes? The auto-brakes if fitted and armed can initiate the braking, then you can continue with manual braking.

[punkalouver]

Originally Posted by Rainboe

Use this as a mantra: "Keep your heels on the floor unless you are braking for landing, or parking!" Period. No discussion OK?

Time for a discussion O.K. Are you sure you have thought through all scenarios before making such a statement which appears to apply to all aircraft? I suggest you read this accident report and think about the hazards of making grand statements without being willing to listen to counter arguements:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/...6/a04c0016.asp

For those that don't have time I will quote some important parts, keeping in mind that when the aircraft landed, it veered to the left due to a frozen brake.

"Because the FO's feet were positioned on the rudder pedals with the heels on the floor, they could not be shifted upward to apply the right brake while pressure was being applied to the right rudder pedal. Neutralizing the pedals to permit shifting the feet upward also would have exacerbated the yaw."

"The pressure exerted by the FO's foot against the right rudder pedal prevented repositioning the foot higher on the pedal to operate the brake. The FO was unable to operate the brake for directional control because he was unable to release the pressure on the rudder pedal without losing the directional control provided by the rudder."

"Although the practice of pilots placing their feet on the rudder pedals with their heels on the floor reduces the risk of tire damage from an unintentional brake application, the practice creates a risk that pilots will not be able to use the brakes to maintain directional control."

[Rainboe]

You make a good point, but I think from my personal experience and what I have actually witnessed on a 747, there is a greater hazard from unintentional brake application through covering the brake pedal with one's foot than there is the hazard of not being able to lift one's foot because one is pressing for all one's worth on the rudder pedal. It takes a moment to lift both feet a couple of inches. Being aware of both sides, it is up to Pruners to decide, but I'll tell you, it was ever so embarrassing for the pilot involved to try and explain to the Flight Manager why we abandoned take-off with 400 passengers and blew 4 tyres! And no, it was not me what done it!

[PPRuNe Towers]

I really, really do like to keep things simple.

I was trained on my first jet (Bac 1-11) to Rainboe's mantra and believed.

However as experience was gained, size of the aircraft increased, derates and assumed temp became king or operated off entirely legal cleared runways with snowbanks reducing width I've recognised exactly the discussion points punklouver raises. For a simple soul it is difficult to reconcile as is the research regarding the measurements of unknowing assymetric manual braking.

Wing mounted twinjets: Forget ticking box with the real mens' V1 cut, low speed failure and abort in the sim recently folks?

Rob

[AirRabbit]

Originally Posted by AerocatS2A

What's wrong with puting your heels on the floor and then IF an abort is required, pop them up onto the brakes? The auto-brakes if fitted and armed can initiate the braking, then you can continue with manual braking.

Very easy to say -- not so very easy to do. Been there and done that -- and I've got the dollars off coupon for a return visit if I choose to returen (no thanks). Attempting to apply brakes while "popping" your feet up higher on the pedal will very likely get your shins a rather abrupt introduction to the bottom of the instrument panel. You want to talk about #$^$ pain? Try that on for size -- believe me, you'll only need once to make you a believer. (Been there too, unfortunately) Plus the fact that every extra second you take, the airplane moves farther down the runway! And if you have a crosswind or asymmetrical thrust for which you need rudder correction, you don't want to choose between going straight and going slower - and you probably don't even want to compromise. As wide as some runways are -- they're not very wide at 100+ knots!

I have always practiced, and I have always taught the students I've had, prior to takeoff you adjust your seat and adjust the rudder pedals (where you can) so that you can get full rudder pedal travel AND get full, maximum brake AT THE SAME TIME. Not many really understand what "full maximum brake application" really means until they've had to use it. It has to be at least what it takes to set the parking brakes and sufice it to say that if your butt is still in the seat, you don't have enough brakes! The best way to do it is to get the best mechanical advantage you can on the brake pedal -- that means your foot has to be well up on the pedal -- no heels on the floor.

Sorry, but if you wanted to be that lazy, you should have taken up another line of work. Of course, this also requires that every single rudder pedal input you make, MUST be done with your heel - not your entire foot. Shoot, you learned to steer with your feet and fly with either hand, you should be able to make rudder pedal input corrections with your heel!

The bottom line is this. IF, a very big word, if, ... but IF you ever need to reject a heavy airplane, or one that is operating right at the limits that day, and you have to do it right at the decision point, believe me, you don't want your heels on the floor! You'll have all the time in the world, after the bird is comfortably in the air and you're cleaned up, to readjust your seat for comfort. Don't forget to put that seat, and the rudder pedals, back in those same pre-takeoff positions prior to landing.

Fancy, time saving conveniences, like autopilots and autobrakes are a wonderful tool and should be used whenever and where-ever appropriate. But if you decide to let the airplane fly you instead of the other way around, just please let me know before hand so that I can get off.
________
AirRabbit

[Charles Darwin]

Originally Posted by oldebloke

Rainbow,do you agree the Captn should have his feet near the brakes for the Reject/abort,or are you relying on Autobrake to initiate the stop..
I believe Boeing has stipulated that a FULL manual braking exceeds autobrake effort??
Cheers

All Boeing aircraft put maximum pressure in at RTO. Must not be confused with MAX AUTO, that is so much less.

[Intruder]

I just got out of the sim (747 Classic) this AM with a warmup session for my PC scheduled tomorrow. When it got to the point where I expected a rejected takeoff, I actually thought back to this discussion.
The sim has autobrakes (not all our airplanes have Takeoff Autobrakes, though). The scenario is what I consider to be the most difficult -- high-speed reject when the F/O is making the T/O. Our procedure has the Captain on the brakes & throttles until V1, and the F/O on the controls. Also, I am expected to override the autobrakes by using maximum manual braking.
I consciously put my heels (attached to size 11 feet in soft-soled shoes) on the floor. At 120+ KIAS (V1 was 149) we lost an outboard engine. I had no problem applying the brakes and steering with the pedals; I slid my feet up the pedals without thinking about it, and my toes stopped at the top bars of the brake pedals. Even with an autospoiler failure (reach over and manually deploy the spoilers before going to reverse) the procedure went without problem.
FWIW, I fly landings with the balls of my feet on the bottom of the rudder pedals and my heels consciously lifted off the floor. I think this gives me better ruddr feel and control for crosswind corrections. Once I confirm deceleration via autobrakes after touchdown, I continue to "fly" the rudder pedals until it's time to slide my feet up to tap the brakes to disengage the autobrakes, and then brake manually.

As for the TSB excerpt above, I don't know what may have "prevented repositioning" of the pilot's feet. Our pedals are quite smooth after many years of wear, so sliding my feet up the pedals -- even with soft, rubber-soled shoes -- is not a problem. I have the strength and reach to put both pedals full down even if my toes catch below the top bar of the brake pedal, though I feel I have better control if my toes are "wrapped around the bar with the balls of me feet just below it.

[AirRabbit]

With a majority of the runways that are in use today there probably is a “fudge factor” that will allow slower reaction times or less aggressive application of wheel brakes. Certainly the technology can now be depended upon for a lot – and autobrakes is just one of the many such techno-gems available for aviation consumption.
But, if you go back and read the accident reports, talk to some of the guys who have experienced it, for real, the other side of the where-do-you-put-your-heels discussion becomes clearer, at least to me - perhaps just to me. Admittedly, the times when you need full rudder and full brakes simultaneously are very few and very far between. And I’m sure that there are many pilots who have retired after a full career and never had to reject a takeoff. Good on ‘em.
Intruder, not to pick on your 747 sim session, but there are two issues that jump out at me. First, you sound like you’re a pretty good-sized chap and therefore probably able to “man-handle” (is there such a word as “foot-handle?”) the brakes and the rudder without too much trouble. Unfortunately, many of us are, shall I say, physically challenged in the height (and maybe not so challenged in the weight – I remember that I do have toes; saw them in the mirror just last week) department – but you know what I mean. Second, in your practice session, I would presume (yes, I know what happens when I do that, but…what the heck) that you were probably not at a runway/gross weight/pressure altitude that put you in a balanced field circumstance, and with a V1 speed of 149, rejecting at 120+ is attention getting – but not riveting. Jack up the weight, use a shorter runway, run up the temperature, and have the world disintegrate at V1 – 2 knots. Throw a reasonable crosswind in from the failed engine side and remove the “I’m-only-in-the-simulator” comfort factor and it just may be that you, too, would become a believer.
I know that my rantings are likely not going to change a career’s worth of habit patterns, but I honestly don’t know why anyone would presume that if you put your entire foot on the rudder pedal that you would be any more prone to mis-apply the brakes when making a rudder pedal input, than you would be to bank when pulling back on the yoke to rotate. You learn to not do that. Like I said earlier, to me (and, again, perhaps only to me) it would seem to be a “cop-out” to put all my trust in a series of automatic systems and lazily rush down the runway, counting on all the auto-systems to keep my butt outa trouble. Maybe one day we’ll get to that point. But, when we do, I’d submit that the pilot would be deemed surplus weight and eliminated from the equation. What could possibly go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…go wrong…

[punkalouver]

Originally Posted by Intruder

As for the TSB excerpt above, I don't know what may have "prevented repositioning" of the pilot's feet. Our pedals are quite smooth after many years of wear, so sliding my feet up the pedals -- even with soft, rubber-soled shoes -- is not a problem.

I suspect that not all airplanes have rudder pedals exactly the same as a 747-200.

[Centaurus]

Heels on the floor every time. During abort training in the 737 simulator, the scenario was set such that a well handled abort using manual braking and both reverse thrust levers would stop the aircraft with 100 feet to spare. The crew consisted of two Asian cadets. One consistently pulled up within the runway while the other always over-ran by a hundred yards or more despite completely correct abort actions.

By chance I happened to look at the brake pedal pressures on the instructor panel during the take off run and saw the pressures cycling rapidly between 100 psi to occasionally 300psi. The cadet who over-ran the runway on each abort was unknowingly applying brakes during the take off run because his feet were high up on the pedals. This extended the runway length needed to V1 and invalidated the abort.

It was impossible for the instructor or the PNF to actually see the cadet's feet applying the pressure because it was dark in the cockpit and in any case it is not the sort of thing you look for in the middle of a take off run. To get the point across, I got the PNF to sit at the instructor panel and observe the pedal pressures as his colleague acccelerated. He could now understand the problem and conveyed what he had seen to the PF cadet who believed him. Previously the PF had sworn blind he was not touching the brakes...Loss of face etc.

The danger of inadvertant light brake application during the take off run, far outweighs the very remote possibility of an abort just at V1 together with a miniscule delay in sliding feet up the pedals to achieve max manual braking on a limiting runway. RTO is best of the lot but inadvertant dragging of the brakes by light pedal pressure due feet up on the pedals on take off can ruin your whole day. Performance calculations go out of the window. Worse still, you cannot pick it happening during the take off accelleration phase because there are no gauges for pedal pressures.

Following this observation on that occasion, I began to monitor pedal pressure more closely during normal take offs and sure enough it happened on more than a few occasions over several weeks on different pilots.

[dusk2dawn]

Manual braking vs. autobrakes

Re my 767 Advisory Information (as issued by Boeing) the Normal Configuration Landing Distance, Fl 30, dry RWY, Max Manual distance is 810' shorter than using Max Autobrake. Also I cannot find any penalties for u/s autobrakes.

Below is a picture from the 767-200 AFM: