Ryanair pilot assesses snowy braking action!
Thread Starter
Ryanair pilot assesses snowy braking action!
Still cant believe it!
Sunday saw LPL SNOCLO due to heavy snow showers and the airport not being able to clear the runway.
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
Even now I still cant believe that:
A. He actually did it; how on earth can a professional pilot make a judgement on the braking efficency of a 737 on a snowy runway that hes trundled along in a car!!!
B. That ATC let him do it in the first place
C. none of his colleagues stopped him!
PS he was the ONLY movement in LPL that day!!
Sunday saw LPL SNOCLO due to heavy snow showers and the airport not being able to clear the runway.
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
Even now I still cant believe that:
A. He actually did it; how on earth can a professional pilot make a judgement on the braking efficency of a 737 on a snowy runway that hes trundled along in a car!!!
B. That ATC let him do it in the first place
C. none of his colleagues stopped him!
PS he was the ONLY movement in LPL that day!!
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After the television documentry on Ryanair does this not sum them up.
Or is this commercial pressure??
Would have been very interesting if the aircaraft had a problem on departure and had to abbort.
The CAA would have had a field day but in the end where are Ryanair registered.
Or is it just the lusk of the Irish.
Or is this commercial pressure??
Would have been very interesting if the aircaraft had a problem on departure and had to abbort.
The CAA would have had a field day but in the end where are Ryanair registered.
Or is it just the lusk of the Irish.
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Do you have the facts or are your statements suppositions? Were you there to personally witness his colleagues reactions... or again is this supposition? Can you substantiate the local conrollers position, or again... is that a supposition too?
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KTT
I cannot see the problem at all... from your post. All he did was hitch a ride in ATC's wagon... that way he got to see the depth / type of snow first hand. He was thus more informed than anybody else about the conditions.
You have not said what he did with the information he gained - just a very loose implication that because he was the only movement that day, he based that on his ride with ATC
If we follow your logic, if I am the only person to divert because of adverse weather, I am "useless" if everybody else carried on / got in. The "sheep" instinct is very dangerous - my hat goes off to him for actually using his initiative in asking for, and getting the ride.... what happened thereafter I do not know from your post
I cannot see the problem at all... from your post. All he did was hitch a ride in ATC's wagon... that way he got to see the depth / type of snow first hand. He was thus more informed than anybody else about the conditions.
You have not said what he did with the information he gained - just a very loose implication that because he was the only movement that day, he based that on his ride with ATC
If we follow your logic, if I am the only person to divert because of adverse weather, I am "useless" if everybody else carried on / got in. The "sheep" instinct is very dangerous - my hat goes off to him for actually using his initiative in asking for, and getting the ride.... what happened thereafter I do not know from your post
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KTT, if the captain ascertained that the B.A. and snow depth (maybe why he went out) were satisfactory he was indeed using his initiative to maximum advantage.
Again, as is so often the case with FR, we just don't have the facts. While I have NO love for FR, sometimes they - or more specifically their pilots - are "not guilty". In fact, the competence of FR pilots is far from being the issue of interest (and concern).
Again, as is so often the case with FR, we just don't have the facts. While I have NO love for FR, sometimes they - or more specifically their pilots - are "not guilty". In fact, the competence of FR pilots is far from being the issue of interest (and concern).
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Although I admit that bashing on FR seems pretty common here, this happening raises my eyebrow...
Imagine what have happened, if the aircraft had a problem during T/O! A T/O at a closed airport from a legal standpoint is veery questionable! The fact he "tested" the braking action with a car is no excuse, it is a ridiculous way and would have never been legally accepted.
My question: Would anyone of YOU commence a T/O under these situation? Sounds like a lot of commercial (or private) pressure...
Imagine what have happened, if the aircraft had a problem during T/O! A T/O at a closed airport from a legal standpoint is veery questionable! The fact he "tested" the braking action with a car is no excuse, it is a ridiculous way and would have never been legally accepted.
My question: Would anyone of YOU commence a T/O under these situation? Sounds like a lot of commercial (or private) pressure...
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Would anyone of YOU commence a T/O under these situation?
However, if I knew the snow depth and type, calculated the relevant performance figures, it permitted me to go, and I was happy, I would go. It would be almost negligent not to.
Seems another thread based on the fact because something to do with FR is "different" it must be "dangerous" "outrageous" etc.
NoD
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A few facts about last Sunday:-
ATC did not allow the pilot to use ATC's car to view the runway.
The airport opened at about 1pm Sunday.
That particular movement was NOT the 'only' aircraft movement that day.
ATC does not have any powers to deny the pilot's request to view the
runway. They are not police officers.
No side-taking, kick the tyres, plain FACTS.
ATC did not allow the pilot to use ATC's car to view the runway.
The airport opened at about 1pm Sunday.
That particular movement was NOT the 'only' aircraft movement that day.
ATC does not have any powers to deny the pilot's request to view the
runway. They are not police officers.
No side-taking, kick the tyres, plain FACTS.
Psychophysiological entity
In days of yore, (groan) the braking action at a lot of airfields was assessed by driving a Land Rover onto the runway, and standing on the brakes with a mu meter?..or whatever. One thing is for sure, I would prefer to see for myself what conditions were like on the runway in some remote airfields.
Where the tires actually tracked was important to me, if I was to get a meaningful reading.
I recall being at ( a lonely regional) with a load of pax that had nowhere to go in thick snow. Breaking action did not respond to the urea treatment, until the last bag! We just got the reading we wanted to be legal. Nice as the folk were, I was glad that it was I, that actually took the reading. And no, I didn't cheat.
(The only really hairy thing that night was the F/Officer walking along the top of the wing with a broom. An heroic effort, but one that I would not have let him do had I known.)
Things have changed hugely now, and most of you will cry ‘thank heavens', but as implied earlier, in the early days, there was probably more learned ‘in the field' than would be allowed now. And hey, a lot of what you are taught as theory now, was learned the hard way by the post war bunch.
Where the tires actually tracked was important to me, if I was to get a meaningful reading.
I recall being at ( a lonely regional) with a load of pax that had nowhere to go in thick snow. Breaking action did not respond to the urea treatment, until the last bag! We just got the reading we wanted to be legal. Nice as the folk were, I was glad that it was I, that actually took the reading. And no, I didn't cheat.
(The only really hairy thing that night was the F/Officer walking along the top of the wing with a broom. An heroic effort, but one that I would not have let him do had I known.)
Things have changed hugely now, and most of you will cry ‘thank heavens', but as implied earlier, in the early days, there was probably more learned ‘in the field' than would be allowed now. And hey, a lot of what you are taught as theory now, was learned the hard way by the post war bunch.
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What absolute tosh!
We've had requests at LGW from aircraft commanders in the past to inspect the runway in adverse weather conditions, one I recall from a highly respected charter operator. We would never refuse this reasonable request, indeed I would regard it as good airmanship to do so if it adds to the data on which to make an informed decision.
I'm not an FR fan as such but it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I believe this sort of FR-bashing takes away the credance of legitimate concerns about the carrier's performance. In other words, keep your powder dry for when it really matters.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
We've had requests at LGW from aircraft commanders in the past to inspect the runway in adverse weather conditions, one I recall from a highly respected charter operator. We would never refuse this reasonable request, indeed I would regard it as good airmanship to do so if it adds to the data on which to make an informed decision.
I'm not an FR fan as such but it sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I believe this sort of FR-bashing takes away the credance of legitimate concerns about the carrier's performance. In other words, keep your powder dry for when it really matters.
Cheers,
TheOddOne
In days of yore, (groan) the braking action at a lot of airfields was assessed by driving a Land Rover onto the runway, and standing on the brakes with a mu meter?..or whatever
gravel runway. The airfield radio guy, a farmer who worked part-time at the airport reported the "braking action as pretty good". During landing, while skidding all over the place, we saw some deep tire tracks in the snow. An inspection of said Land Rover, revealed snow chains on every tire! The guy had ripped through the snow into the gravel with the chains! No such luck on our old battered Fokker 27
o/c
Warning Toxic!
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Some of the posts here by amateurs are absolutely outrageous. It is a perfectly valid action for a Captain to go out and inspect the runway himself and assess according to the guidelines in his manuals whether an operation is viable. I have done it myself more than once and done several inspections to get the overall assessment of contamination, and found it acceptable, and had absolutely no problem. Aircraft performance tables include special contaminated runway data within strict guidelines.
I'm appalled at some of the uneducated and incorrect criticism of a pilot doing his job. The fact that most of the 'facts' in the original post are apparently incorrect is an indication of the validity of the criticism of the Captain! If there'd have been any hope of those posters being honorable and apologising for their criticism, I'd have demanded a retraction for the nonsense they've spouted! If you don't understand what you're talking about, why step in with dreadful criticism like that?
I'm appalled at some of the uneducated and incorrect criticism of a pilot doing his job. The fact that most of the 'facts' in the original post are apparently incorrect is an indication of the validity of the criticism of the Captain! If there'd have been any hope of those posters being honorable and apologising for their criticism, I'd have demanded a retraction for the nonsense they've spouted! If you don't understand what you're talking about, why step in with dreadful criticism like that?
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Just in case some editing goes on, and the thread gets "confusing" 
I'll preserve the original post from 'kick the tires:
I'll preserve the original post from 'kick the tires:
Still cant believe it!
Sunday saw LPL SNOCLO due to heavy snow showers and the airport not being able to clear the runway.
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
Even now I still cant believe that:
A. He actually did it; how on earth can a professional pilot make a judgement on the braking efficency of a 737 on a snowy runway that hes trundled along in a car!!!
B. That ATC let him do it in the first place
C. none of his colleagues stopped him!
PS he was the ONLY movement in LPL that day!!
Sunday saw LPL SNOCLO due to heavy snow showers and the airport not being able to clear the runway.
To everyones amazement a Ryanair Captain managed to persuade ATC to let him have a ride in their car in order to 'test' the braking action himself!!!
Even now I still cant believe that:
A. He actually did it; how on earth can a professional pilot make a judgement on the braking efficency of a 737 on a snowy runway that hes trundled along in a car!!!
B. That ATC let him do it in the first place
C. none of his colleagues stopped him!
PS he was the ONLY movement in LPL that day!!
Psychophysiological entity
I have just had the image come to mind, of two 748s parked across a road at Portsmouth. The second crew was not informed of the poor braking action, "...because it might have upset the Captain."
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I was in Doncaster a few weeks back , with snow falling and settling on the runway. The 'Ranger' (Airfield Ops) came up to my flight-deck and informed me that the braking action was 'pretty good' as he had just driven along the runway applying his brakes in line with where the main gear would be. I asked what the friction co-efficient was, to which he replied that he hadn't got a reading and it would take 15 minutes for him to get one. I politely asked if he would like to start the process, to which he replied 'well the easyJet has just gone and he was alright'.
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fellow flyers:
I have not flown in europe, so my view is from the new side of the pond.
If this guy really went out on the runway in a car, more power to him.
I went to the control tower once to make sure the visibility was taken in a proper fashion...one airport in the USA requires 5 miles visibility to do the approach...as I was taking off I needed to know if I could get back in. I couldn't see ONE mile, but the company guy was happy to " call it 5".
we waited .
AS to closing an airport/aerodrome. Airports are seldom really closed because of weather. Usually, in the USA,it is up to airport managers to decide to close an airport, NOT ATC. ATC on some occasions may act on airport manager's behalf and " close " an airport when an accident has happened and the crash fire rescue teams could not respond to another accident. Certainly the airport can be closed to groom the runway...however this is usually done only after a US "nil" braking action report.
While people will throw around the term " closed" instead of saying, ''the airport is below operational minimums and we have elected to divert'' is closer to the truth.
on snowy days I have walked out to a good vantage point to look over the runway and like they say, " one picture is worth a thousand words".
Had an aborted takeoff happened, and the plane went off the end of the runway, this action of "checking" the runway would have been on more arrow in the quiver of this pilot's defense .
regards
jon
I have not flown in europe, so my view is from the new side of the pond.
If this guy really went out on the runway in a car, more power to him.
I went to the control tower once to make sure the visibility was taken in a proper fashion...one airport in the USA requires 5 miles visibility to do the approach...as I was taking off I needed to know if I could get back in. I couldn't see ONE mile, but the company guy was happy to " call it 5".
we waited .
AS to closing an airport/aerodrome. Airports are seldom really closed because of weather. Usually, in the USA,it is up to airport managers to decide to close an airport, NOT ATC. ATC on some occasions may act on airport manager's behalf and " close " an airport when an accident has happened and the crash fire rescue teams could not respond to another accident. Certainly the airport can be closed to groom the runway...however this is usually done only after a US "nil" braking action report.
While people will throw around the term " closed" instead of saying, ''the airport is below operational minimums and we have elected to divert'' is closer to the truth.
on snowy days I have walked out to a good vantage point to look over the runway and like they say, " one picture is worth a thousand words".
Had an aborted takeoff happened, and the plane went off the end of the runway, this action of "checking" the runway would have been on more arrow in the quiver of this pilot's defense .
regards
jon
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''the airport is below operational minimums and we have elected to divert'' is OK if talking to those in the know. But for PAX "Closed" is as close to the truth as they need.
Or a rope to hang him - depending on the circumstances.
Had an aborted takeoff happened, and the plane went off the end of the runway, this action of "checking" the runway would have been on more arrow in the quiver of this pilot's defense .
About 18 or 19 years ago, the Captain I worked with rode in an airport car on the departure runway at White Plains, NY. It is still a short runway.
Why do people assume that the Ryanair Captain planned to make his decision to operate, based only upon a ride in a car? He must have had other information. He might have had the option to taxi on the runway as he checked the brakes on the way to the first exit and return for takeoff, in order to make his final decision.
On the other hand, for many years, airline crews at a busy midwestern airport de-iced by the beginning of a departure runway. A few years ago I asked Tower whether anybody knew what the braking action was. The Tower Controller said "we don't know". It was quite normal for B-737s, DC-9s, F-100, MD-80s, B-727s, A-320s, B-757s etc to depart without having a current braking action report from a jet. This runway is mostly used only for departures.
From what I remember, nobody else ever requested a braking action report OR another runway: was this the "sheep mentality"? For the newer pilots or laymen/amateurs, keep in mind that a turboprop or recip aircraft can usually slow down very well using only ground fine or prop reverse-with little wheel braking needed.
Why do people assume that the Ryanair Captain planned to make his decision to operate, based only upon a ride in a car? He must have had other information. He might have had the option to taxi on the runway as he checked the brakes on the way to the first exit and return for takeoff, in order to make his final decision.
On the other hand, for many years, airline crews at a busy midwestern airport de-iced by the beginning of a departure runway. A few years ago I asked Tower whether anybody knew what the braking action was. The Tower Controller said "we don't know". It was quite normal for B-737s, DC-9s, F-100, MD-80s, B-727s, A-320s, B-757s etc to depart without having a current braking action report from a jet. This runway is mostly used only for departures.
From what I remember, nobody else ever requested a braking action report OR another runway: was this the "sheep mentality"? For the newer pilots or laymen/amateurs, keep in mind that a turboprop or recip aircraft can usually slow down very well using only ground fine or prop reverse-with little wheel braking needed.