Fuel Leak NG
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Sorry to hear that Pat. If you had time for one last post...how do the pilots that have your book incorporate it into their company's ops. Consider the fuel imbalance flowchart you posted the link to, I mean how do I respectfully pull that out during a sim exercise and use it? Obviously the manufacturer's recommmendations are what they are, but from the feedback you're getting from pilots that bought the book, do they find the "enhancements" to the NNC useful and accepted by the training cadre at their companies?
Here I am creeping my own thread, but good information is sometimes hard to find...
JD
Here I am creeping my own thread, but good information is sometimes hard to find...
JD
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- I perform the recall items (if any)
- I use the QRH NNC and JAR OM B from the operator
- I do the management as I was trained to do
Time remaining I use other b737 guides to check for additional info
- I use the QRH NNC and JAR OM B from the operator
- I do the management as I was trained to do
Time remaining I use other b737 guides to check for additional info
Last edited by B737MRG; 13th Feb 2006 at 08:19.
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It looks like Boeing has decided only to publish a checklist for "engine fuel leak".
They did not call it in a general way: "fuel leak" followed by a decision tree.
In my opinion Boeing has decided to focus only on the most probable cause related to a single failure only that would cause a leak.
Having said that it remains the responsability of the Captain to analye the situation differently if multiple failures are present. Use sound judgement, as such the MRG from my old collegue pat does fit in.
They did not call it in a general way: "fuel leak" followed by a decision tree.
In my opinion Boeing has decided to focus only on the most probable cause related to a single failure only that would cause a leak.
Having said that it remains the responsability of the Captain to analye the situation differently if multiple failures are present. Use sound judgement, as such the MRG from my old collegue pat does fit in.
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Good points Streamline. My quandary started initially doing the post-mortem on a sim session. That got me looking in detail at the Engine Fuel Leak checklist. Of course famialiarity with all NNC checklists would better enable us all to handle an airborne malfunction, but with this NNC it would seem especially prudent to do so.
In my opinion, this particular NNC leads a little to be desired. It might lead to a little confusion when faced with a leak. I think a proviso should be included at the start of the checklist to
"assume that any fuel leak is an engine fuel leak, and carry out the procedures described below. Further troubleshooting may lead to the diagnosis of a fuel tank leak, but the procedures described below, should, as a minimum, enable the aircraft to safely divert to a suitable aerodrome."
Or something like that.
Once diversion underway, then use the sound judgement and experience as appropriate.
Still really curious as how the Airbus ECAM/QRH handles the scenario.
POST SCRIPT: just found this Airbus presentation on fuel leaks:
http://www.pilotosdeiberia.com/areat...3fuel_leak.htm
From that link, an excerpt:
3.2.4. Hole in wing or center tank
The ideal course of action would be to firstly use the fuel from the leaking tank to feed all engines. Thus increasing the amount of available fuel. However, it is highly unlikely that the crew will be able to confirm the cause of the leak. Also, the procedure would be relatively complex. As this type of failure is rare, the procedure to be followed is to select all the pumps off. Once the leaking tank is depleted, the associated engine will flame out.
In my opinion, this particular NNC leads a little to be desired. It might lead to a little confusion when faced with a leak. I think a proviso should be included at the start of the checklist to
"assume that any fuel leak is an engine fuel leak, and carry out the procedures described below. Further troubleshooting may lead to the diagnosis of a fuel tank leak, but the procedures described below, should, as a minimum, enable the aircraft to safely divert to a suitable aerodrome."
Or something like that.
Once diversion underway, then use the sound judgement and experience as appropriate.
Still really curious as how the Airbus ECAM/QRH handles the scenario.
POST SCRIPT: just found this Airbus presentation on fuel leaks:
http://www.pilotosdeiberia.com/areat...3fuel_leak.htm
From that link, an excerpt:
3.2.4. Hole in wing or center tank
The ideal course of action would be to firstly use the fuel from the leaking tank to feed all engines. Thus increasing the amount of available fuel. However, it is highly unlikely that the crew will be able to confirm the cause of the leak. Also, the procedure would be relatively complex. As this type of failure is rare, the procedure to be followed is to select all the pumps off. Once the leaking tank is depleted, the associated engine will flame out.
Last edited by jonny dangerous; 8th Feb 2006 at 16:11.
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So in summary for the B 737 NG:
Fuel leak suspected.
Boeing states most probably comming from engine.
Shut down engine to confirm this is true.
If so thats the end.
If not leak is somewhere else.
Try to get as much fuel as possible out of leaking tank (Airbus)
Enentually restart the engine.
A bit strange at first glance but probability is on your side if you start by shut down.
Fuel leak suspected.
Boeing states most probably comming from engine.
Shut down engine to confirm this is true.
If so thats the end.
If not leak is somewhere else.
Try to get as much fuel as possible out of leaking tank (Airbus)
Enentually restart the engine.
A bit strange at first glance but probability is on your side if you start by shut down.
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Pat,
I hope that you discuss the advertising side with those further up the totem pole as it would be sad for your work not to be readily available to those on PPRuNe who might like to purchase the information.
Unfortunately, PPRuNe costs a truckload of money to run and Danny et al provide a great service to the aviating community generally at no cost to those who use it.
The "downside" is that those who can benefit commercially from it really need to make some contribution to what is a very directed marketing avenue for aviation things.
Personally, I hope that you continue to play in the sandpit as your accumulated knowledge represents a very useful resource for the readership.
On the "why doesn't Boeing put this or that in their books" question
(a) I can't speak for Boeing but consider
(b) they have to make it
(i) reasonably simple
(ii) sufficiently general to avoid having to tailor the documentation set for every individual aircraft and operator, and
(c) they have to have a consideration to the possibilities for Regulator certificate action and/or litigation
I hope that you discuss the advertising side with those further up the totem pole as it would be sad for your work not to be readily available to those on PPRuNe who might like to purchase the information.
Unfortunately, PPRuNe costs a truckload of money to run and Danny et al provide a great service to the aviating community generally at no cost to those who use it.
The "downside" is that those who can benefit commercially from it really need to make some contribution to what is a very directed marketing avenue for aviation things.
Personally, I hope that you continue to play in the sandpit as your accumulated knowledge represents a very useful resource for the readership.
On the "why doesn't Boeing put this or that in their books" question
(a) I can't speak for Boeing but consider
(b) they have to make it
(i) reasonably simple
(ii) sufficiently general to avoid having to tailor the documentation set for every individual aircraft and operator, and
(c) they have to have a consideration to the possibilities for Regulator certificate action and/or litigation
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Hi John,
no worry, I understand.
Jonny,
I have updated the flow chart (added a drawing) - Comments welcome
URL deleted .. Pat, please send the reference to Jonny by PM
Pat
no worry, I understand.
Jonny,
I have updated the flow chart (added a drawing) - Comments welcome
URL deleted .. Pat, please send the reference to Jonny by PM
Pat
Last edited by B737MRG; 13th Feb 2006 at 07:51.
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A couple of follow up questions about the Engine Fuel Leak NNC for the NG. We are still pursuing our ETOPs certification, and the topic of the fuel leak over the water came up at last week's meeting with the poohbahs. Given that the NNC gives the following (one or more) as evidence of a fuel leak:
- Visual observation of fuel spray from strut/engine
- Excessive fuel flow
- Total fuel quantity decreasing at an abnormal rate
- Fuel IMBAL indication
- USING RSV FUEL message
- INSUFFICIENT FUEL message
- CHECK FMC FUEL QUANTITY message
Question: When does the CHECK FMC FUEL QUANTITY message pop up. i.e. what criteria activate it. Is it a didfference between PROG page fuel qty and the digital fuel quantity of XXX kilos?
Question: For non ETOPs operations, we use the RSV field of the PERF INIT page to put in ALT + 30 MIN RSV fuel. So, this might be 3000 kilos or so. For ETOPS operations, we plann to land with FOD of 5000 kilos or so. Ergo, if you're getting the USING RSV FUEL message, you are well into the fuel leak. Are there any operators who put in a high amount on the RSV field of the PERF INIT to get this message sooner?
- Visual observation of fuel spray from strut/engine
- Excessive fuel flow
- Total fuel quantity decreasing at an abnormal rate
- Fuel IMBAL indication
- USING RSV FUEL message
- INSUFFICIENT FUEL message
- CHECK FMC FUEL QUANTITY message
Question: When does the CHECK FMC FUEL QUANTITY message pop up. i.e. what criteria activate it. Is it a didfference between PROG page fuel qty and the digital fuel quantity of XXX kilos?
Question: For non ETOPs operations, we use the RSV field of the PERF INIT page to put in ALT + 30 MIN RSV fuel. So, this might be 3000 kilos or so. For ETOPS operations, we plann to land with FOD of 5000 kilos or so. Ergo, if you're getting the USING RSV FUEL message, you are well into the fuel leak. Are there any operators who put in a high amount on the RSV field of the PERF INIT to get this message sooner?
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I must stress this is not an SOP, but you could put the calculated 'critical' ETP fuel (that is PLOG calculated plus your 'extras for granny'
) in as 'Reserves' - until you get there.
) in as 'Reserves' - until you get there.
