Laser injures Delta pilot's eye
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Haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has been said before, but:
Surely there must be some missiles that will backtrack the laser? Even if you don't want to fit them, fully automated, to every airliner, police helicopters could carry them? They wouldn't need much of a payload, about hand grenade size should do so as to take out the laser (and the terrorist holding it) but do little or no collateral damage.
Surely there must be some missiles that will backtrack the laser? Even if you don't want to fit them, fully automated, to every airliner, police helicopters could carry them? They wouldn't need much of a payload, about hand grenade size should do so as to take out the laser (and the terrorist holding it) but do little or no collateral damage.
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That's all well and good if you are dealing with a terrorist. But if it's some idiot in his backyard spotting planes (check back a dozen posts), a grenade or two isn't going to make good press for your airline/police department. 90 seconds on the evening news, with video of the amateur being led off in handcuffs will probably suffice in such circumstances.
Problem is, at the time you most likely will not know if it's a terrorist or an @hole.
Problem is, at the time you most likely will not know if it's a terrorist or an @hole.
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idiot in his backyard spotting planes
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This is getting worse than 'powdermania'...
Cockpit Laser
01-02-2005 -- Nashville
NASHVILLE, Tenn -- An investigation is underway Sunday night at Nashville International Airport after an airline was hit by a laser beam. An FBI spokesman says United Airlines Flight 7136 from Nashville to Chicago landed safely. The FBI and TSA say the flight was flashed by a laser while it was about 3,000 feet above ground. The flight was able to continue...but the transportation security administration is looking into the matter. Lasers could blind or disorient pilots and could cause a plane to crash. Federal agents are investigating similar incidents across the country. Just last month, the Homeland Security Department issued a memo warning terrorists may be exploring using lasers as weapons. However, there is no evidence the Nashville incident is connected to terrorism.
http://www.wztv.com/cgi-bin/csNews.c...e&id=4634&op=t
Cockpit Laser
01-02-2005 -- Nashville
NASHVILLE, Tenn -- An investigation is underway Sunday night at Nashville International Airport after an airline was hit by a laser beam. An FBI spokesman says United Airlines Flight 7136 from Nashville to Chicago landed safely. The FBI and TSA say the flight was flashed by a laser while it was about 3,000 feet above ground. The flight was able to continue...but the transportation security administration is looking into the matter. Lasers could blind or disorient pilots and could cause a plane to crash. Federal agents are investigating similar incidents across the country. Just last month, the Homeland Security Department issued a memo warning terrorists may be exploring using lasers as weapons. However, there is no evidence the Nashville incident is connected to terrorism.
http://www.wztv.com/cgi-bin/csNews.c...e&id=4634&op=t
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LatviaCalling wrote:
If you have a beam oscillating all over hell and gone, "tracking" is easy. Is much harder to "track" with a powerful beam concentrated in a few mmsq than to shake the beam over the area the size of a barn.
More likely a flabby office worker with money to burn and less respect for aircraft than your average 16-year old.
A laser pointer IS sophisticated equipment.
Not so.. I can show you 5 different ways to get this general result with things one can buy quite cheaply in a grocery store.
You seem sincere in your concern about this problem, but you are missing the points about spreading laser power over a large area: a) the hard part is holding a beam still on a "target" surface, and b)any sort of scanning reduces the point contact power of even very powerful beams to such a tiny fraction that the direct health hazard goes away... although the annoyance surely persists...and is more likely to be seen.
What concerns investigators is the apparent ability of the "Laser Dudes" to TRACK the cockpits, over a period of several seconds, and to "wash," or mechanically oscillate the beam into a wide-coverage pattern of the cockpits with the laser beam.
It is clear that these events are NOT some overweight, freckle-faced, red-headed 16-year-old kid with a laser pointer. Whoever it is has sophisticated equipment.
A laser pointer IS sophisticated equipment.
Minimally, it would have to be a heavy-duty tripod with a fluid head, and probably a computer controlled platform.
You seem sincere in your concern about this problem, but you are missing the points about spreading laser power over a large area: a) the hard part is holding a beam still on a "target" surface, and b)any sort of scanning reduces the point contact power of even very powerful beams to such a tiny fraction that the direct health hazard goes away... although the annoyance surely persists...and is more likely to be seen.
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Just last month, the Homeland Security Department issued a memo warning terrorists may be exploring using lasers as weapons. However, there is no evidence the Nashville incident is connected to terrorism.
I imagine terrorists would want to down an airplane, requiring a great deal more powerful 'weapon' than your local Radio Shack carries. Will that be before or after they perfect their rail gun, I wonder ?
One problem, besides taking all of our eyes away from the altimeter and airspeed etc which is a bad idea, is the risk to our eyes if trying to just see where it comes from, another really bad idea. How could we begin to locate the origin? A suspect and conviction would help deter wannabes.
A police helicopter would really help. Maybe the spotter could wear goggles used during early nuclear tests and mark the laser origin with his own laser until the pilot circles the, eh, 'target', and helps the local squad car to find the jerk(s).
Taking any such jerk on a tour of the local prison, having lunch with potential pals, might result in 'behavior modification'.
A police helicopter would really help. Maybe the spotter could wear goggles used during early nuclear tests and mark the laser origin with his own laser until the pilot circles the, eh, 'target', and helps the local squad car to find the jerk(s).
Taking any such jerk on a tour of the local prison, having lunch with potential pals, might result in 'behavior modification'.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 14th Jan 2005 at 06:17.
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>>The Source of the LASER "WeaponS"
www.lasershoppe.com
has acknowledged that they've stopped selling the powerful green LASERs that are being used to annoy pilots on approach<<
A review of the >100mw portable green laser that this guy was selling is here:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/second/pgliii.htm
As of a couple days ago, he's been persuaded by the FBI to stop importing this product:
______________________________________________
Guys, I would strongly recommend against trying to import these into the US right now. I spent an hour on the phone this morning with a Special Agent from the FBI, and that's why I cancelled the orders. Just forget about these lasers. Trust me on this. It's not worth having a search warrant served and your house raided by a bunch of agents with guns.
When shipping to the US, CNI most certainly DOES indicate on the outside of the shipping box that there are lasers inside. There is no way to get these into the US without being put on a list and receiving a call from the FBI.
Too many people are lighting up airplanes with lasers, and if you import one (or more) of these, the authorities are going to assume that you intend to do the same thing. The whole situation is really bad right now. Idiots with lasers, media hype, ignorance, confusion, and a bunch of FBI agents who are under pressure to do something about it all. If you don't want to be made an example of, then just forget about owning a PGL-III laser and use the money for something else right now.
That's my advice. LISTEN TO IT. You can't say you weren't warned.
From:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubb...=186&fpart=all
_____________________________________________
By all accounts he was importing the lasers legally as far as U.S. Customs (or whatever it's called these days) was concerned. Whether it was legal to sell these > 5mw products to "hobbyists" without a "variance" is not clear to me, the Food and Drug Administration seems to have the lead in laser classification and regulation in the U.S.
There is an active community of personal laser enthusiasts here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubb...sed&sb=5&o=186
It is interesting that many of the arguments on whether a small laser can successfully target a moving airplane are similar to the ones in this PPRuNe thread.
From one of the messages on the forum above, here's information about targeting an aircraft with a green laser to simulate gunfire for a documentary:
http://www.lumalaser.com/redbaron.htm
www.lasershoppe.com
has acknowledged that they've stopped selling the powerful green LASERs that are being used to annoy pilots on approach<<
A review of the >100mw portable green laser that this guy was selling is here:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/second/pgliii.htm
As of a couple days ago, he's been persuaded by the FBI to stop importing this product:
______________________________________________
Guys, I would strongly recommend against trying to import these into the US right now. I spent an hour on the phone this morning with a Special Agent from the FBI, and that's why I cancelled the orders. Just forget about these lasers. Trust me on this. It's not worth having a search warrant served and your house raided by a bunch of agents with guns.
When shipping to the US, CNI most certainly DOES indicate on the outside of the shipping box that there are lasers inside. There is no way to get these into the US without being put on a list and receiving a call from the FBI.
Too many people are lighting up airplanes with lasers, and if you import one (or more) of these, the authorities are going to assume that you intend to do the same thing. The whole situation is really bad right now. Idiots with lasers, media hype, ignorance, confusion, and a bunch of FBI agents who are under pressure to do something about it all. If you don't want to be made an example of, then just forget about owning a PGL-III laser and use the money for something else right now.
That's my advice. LISTEN TO IT. You can't say you weren't warned.
From:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubb...=186&fpart=all
_____________________________________________
By all accounts he was importing the lasers legally as far as U.S. Customs (or whatever it's called these days) was concerned. Whether it was legal to sell these > 5mw products to "hobbyists" without a "variance" is not clear to me, the Food and Drug Administration seems to have the lead in laser classification and regulation in the U.S.
There is an active community of personal laser enthusiasts here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/ubb...sed&sb=5&o=186
It is interesting that many of the arguments on whether a small laser can successfully target a moving airplane are similar to the ones in this PPRuNe thread.
From one of the messages on the forum above, here's information about targeting an aircraft with a green laser to simulate gunfire for a documentary:
http://www.lumalaser.com/redbaron.htm
Last edited by Airbubba; 4th Jan 2005 at 03:52.
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New Jersey man charged in laser incident
NEWARK, New Jersey (AP) -- A man who initially claimed his daughter aimed a laser at a helicopter was charged after he told federal agents that he pointed the light beam at two aircraft, authorities said Tuesday.
David Banach of Parsippany faces charges of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI. He is scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court on Tuesday afternoon.
The aircraft were targeted by the lasers near Teterboro Airport.
On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land a chartered jet with 13 people aboard reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport.
On Friday, a helicopter carrying Port Authority detectives was hit by a beam as they surveyed the area in an attempt to pinpoint the origin of the original beams.
The two incidents were among a rash of recent reports of lasers allegedly aimed at aircraft, raising fears that the light beams could temporarily blind crew members and lead to accidents.
Last month the FBI and the Homeland Security Department sent a memo to law enforcement agencies saying there is evidence that terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons, though federal law enforcement officials have said there is no evidence of any terrorist plot in the current incidents.
According to court papers, under questioning Banach admitted lying and said he shined a laser beam at both the jet and the helicopter. He has not been charged in the helicopter incident.
His lawyer, Gina Mendola-Longarzo, did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment Tuesday.
The chartered jet was flying at about 3,000 feet when the pilot and co-pilot saw a green laser beam strike the windshield three times, according to court documents filed Tuesday. The flash blinded the two temporarily, but they were later able to land the plane safely.
After the helicopter crew also reported seeing laser beams, FBI agents canvassed Banach's neighborhood trying.
Banach told the agents it was his daughter who shined a beam at the helicopter, according to court papers. He denied the laser was in use when the jet had passed nearby. But later, Banach submitted to a lie detector test and eventually said he shined the laser beam at both aircraft, according to the court papers. The papers did not give any alleged motive.
David Banach of Parsippany faces charges of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI. He is scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court on Tuesday afternoon.
The aircraft were targeted by the lasers near Teterboro Airport.
On Wednesday night, a pilot preparing to land a chartered jet with 13 people aboard reported seeing three green laser beams about 11 miles from the airport.
On Friday, a helicopter carrying Port Authority detectives was hit by a beam as they surveyed the area in an attempt to pinpoint the origin of the original beams.
The two incidents were among a rash of recent reports of lasers allegedly aimed at aircraft, raising fears that the light beams could temporarily blind crew members and lead to accidents.
Last month the FBI and the Homeland Security Department sent a memo to law enforcement agencies saying there is evidence that terrorists have explored using lasers as weapons, though federal law enforcement officials have said there is no evidence of any terrorist plot in the current incidents.
According to court papers, under questioning Banach admitted lying and said he shined a laser beam at both the jet and the helicopter. He has not been charged in the helicopter incident.
His lawyer, Gina Mendola-Longarzo, did not immediately return a phone call seeking comment Tuesday.
The chartered jet was flying at about 3,000 feet when the pilot and co-pilot saw a green laser beam strike the windshield three times, according to court documents filed Tuesday. The flash blinded the two temporarily, but they were later able to land the plane safely.
After the helicopter crew also reported seeing laser beams, FBI agents canvassed Banach's neighborhood trying.
Banach told the agents it was his daughter who shined a beam at the helicopter, according to court papers. He denied the laser was in use when the jet had passed nearby. But later, Banach submitted to a lie detector test and eventually said he shined the laser beam at both aircraft, according to the court papers. The papers did not give any alleged motive.
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None but a blockhead
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There's not much published science about lasers and retinal damage, especially with the class IIIa handheld devices popular with the nerds. However, a discussion about astronomy and lasers (green ones make great star pointers) elsewhere revealed this from the Mayo on PubMed:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
The abstract says:
"We report the absence of photic retinal injury after exposing the retina to light from class 3A laser pointers for durations of up to 15 minutes. Three patients with uveal melanomas were scheduled to have an enucleation. Each agreed to have his or her retina exposed to laser light from a class 3A laser pointer prior to enucleation. Continuous exposure was directed to the fovea for 1 minute, to the retina 5 degrees below fixation for 5 minutes, and to the retina 5 degrees above fixation for 15 minutes. Ophthalmoscopic evaluation of the cornea, lens, and retina and fluorescein angiographic studies of the retina were conducted before, 24 hours after, and 11 days after laser exposure in the first case; before and 86 hours after exposure in the second case; and before, 96 hours after, and 15 days after exposure in the third case. Other than transient afterimages that lasted only a few minutes, we were unable to document any functional, ophthalmoscopic, fluorescein angiographic, or histologic evidence of damage to any structures of the eyes. Transmission electron microscopic studies of retinal sites targeted by the laser pointers in the second and third cases revealed ultrastructural abnormalities in the outer retina and the pigment epithelium that were similar to abnormalities seen in the retina approximately 8 mm away from the targeted sites. The risk to the human eye from transient exposure to light from commercially available class 3A laser pointers having powers of 1, 2, and 5 mW seems negligible."
Which doesn't help with dazzling, after-images and other nasties, but nobody should lose sleep thinking some idiot with a laser pointer from Maplins is going to blind them for life.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
The abstract says:
"We report the absence of photic retinal injury after exposing the retina to light from class 3A laser pointers for durations of up to 15 minutes. Three patients with uveal melanomas were scheduled to have an enucleation. Each agreed to have his or her retina exposed to laser light from a class 3A laser pointer prior to enucleation. Continuous exposure was directed to the fovea for 1 minute, to the retina 5 degrees below fixation for 5 minutes, and to the retina 5 degrees above fixation for 15 minutes. Ophthalmoscopic evaluation of the cornea, lens, and retina and fluorescein angiographic studies of the retina were conducted before, 24 hours after, and 11 days after laser exposure in the first case; before and 86 hours after exposure in the second case; and before, 96 hours after, and 15 days after exposure in the third case. Other than transient afterimages that lasted only a few minutes, we were unable to document any functional, ophthalmoscopic, fluorescein angiographic, or histologic evidence of damage to any structures of the eyes. Transmission electron microscopic studies of retinal sites targeted by the laser pointers in the second and third cases revealed ultrastructural abnormalities in the outer retina and the pigment epithelium that were similar to abnormalities seen in the retina approximately 8 mm away from the targeted sites. The risk to the human eye from transient exposure to light from commercially available class 3A laser pointers having powers of 1, 2, and 5 mW seems negligible."
Which doesn't help with dazzling, after-images and other nasties, but nobody should lose sleep thinking some idiot with a laser pointer from Maplins is going to blind them for life.
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>>David Banach of Parsippany faces charges of interfering with the operator of a mass transportation vehicle and making false statements to the FBI. <<
According to news reports, he got the laser here:
http://www.bigha.com/sky/index.php
It appears to be a totally street legal <5mw class 3a laser pointer...
According to news reports, he got the laser here:
http://www.bigha.com/sky/index.php
It appears to be a totally street legal <5mw class 3a laser pointer...
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In the version of this story in this morning's Washington Post the charge was interfering with the operation of an aircraft.
Suspect a Citation on a charter would not qualify as a mass transit vehicle.
Interfering with an aircraft and how about attempted murder seem appropriate charges. Ought to be good for about 15 to 50 years.
Suspect a Citation on a charter would not qualify as a mass transit vehicle.
Interfering with an aircraft and how about attempted murder seem appropriate charges. Ought to be good for about 15 to 50 years.
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>>Interfering with an aircraft and how about attempted murder seem appropriate charges. Ought to be good for about 15 to 50 years.<<
I predict he'll cop a plea, get off with a fine and probation. We'll see...
I predict he'll cop a plea, get off with a fine and probation. We'll see...
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>>Suspect a Citation on a charter would not qualify as a mass transit vehicle.<<
Maybe it does qualify:
_________________________________
...The anti-terrorism provision of the Patriot Act was used to prosecute Richard Reid of Great Britain for hiding explosives in his shoe while on a flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001, but that count of the indictment against him was dismissed because a federal court ruled that an aircraft was not a "vehicle" under the scope of the Patriot Act.
The law subsequently was amended to define "vehicle" as any "means of transportation on land, water or through the air."
From:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey...9786917220.xml
Maybe it does qualify:
_________________________________
...The anti-terrorism provision of the Patriot Act was used to prosecute Richard Reid of Great Britain for hiding explosives in his shoe while on a flight from Paris to Miami in December 2001, but that count of the indictment against him was dismissed because a federal court ruled that an aircraft was not a "vehicle" under the scope of the Patriot Act.
The law subsequently was amended to define "vehicle" as any "means of transportation on land, water or through the air."
From:
http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/jersey...9786917220.xml
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Salon.com letter
Spotted this comment on salon.com yesterday - been following the story via "ask the pilot". Some good points.
http://www.salon.com/tech/letters/2005/01/05/laser/
[Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post from another member!]
http://www.salon.com/tech/letters/2005/01/05/laser/
[Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post from another member!]
Still behind the curtain
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kmi,
I have a few bones to pick with Alex Small, the almost Ph.D. None of my comments reflect on you, because you only posted what Mr. Small said.
First of all, he says: "Terrorists would need a large laser with a portable power supply and cooling system. Such systems are available, but they are bulky and expensive."
My comment to that is that if it would be a concerted terrorist attack, they would have the money. No question about it.
Second, Mr. Small says, "...teporary blindness is certainly dangerous. However... blinding a pilot for a few second is not necessarily enough to bring down a plane."
What if you're on finals 1,000 or 500 feet from touchdown and you can't see a thing? I don't think Mr. Small has ever piloted an aircraft, large or small. I have.
Thirdly, he says, "Realistically, the weapons system would cost a hundred thousand dollars..."
I don't think that is out of the reach of potential terrorist funds.
Then he says that the system would have to be dismantled so as not to leave a trace. That's where the fertilizer and diesel come in to place. They've done their job and now let's blow it up to cover our tracks.
If they are foreign terrorists, they'll disappear in a day or two. If they are domestic terrorists, the FBI will probably put the pieces together and eventually arrest someone. In any case, I was rather commenting on the international types.
I have a few bones to pick with Alex Small, the almost Ph.D. None of my comments reflect on you, because you only posted what Mr. Small said.
First of all, he says: "Terrorists would need a large laser with a portable power supply and cooling system. Such systems are available, but they are bulky and expensive."
My comment to that is that if it would be a concerted terrorist attack, they would have the money. No question about it.
Second, Mr. Small says, "...teporary blindness is certainly dangerous. However... blinding a pilot for a few second is not necessarily enough to bring down a plane."
What if you're on finals 1,000 or 500 feet from touchdown and you can't see a thing? I don't think Mr. Small has ever piloted an aircraft, large or small. I have.
Thirdly, he says, "Realistically, the weapons system would cost a hundred thousand dollars..."
I don't think that is out of the reach of potential terrorist funds.
Then he says that the system would have to be dismantled so as not to leave a trace. That's where the fertilizer and diesel come in to place. They've done their job and now let's blow it up to cover our tracks.
If they are foreign terrorists, they'll disappear in a day or two. If they are domestic terrorists, the FBI will probably put the pieces together and eventually arrest someone. In any case, I was rather commenting on the international types.