Ramp Rash -Solutions?
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Ramp Rash -Solutions?
Our aircraft seem to take a beating from vehicles on the ramp -loading ramps, steps and catering trucks are the main offenders. This costs the airlines a fortune.
Two things I think would help. Fisrt, how about making airside drivers more accountable for the mayhem they cause. Better training and conditions of service would help -coupled with much more stiff penalties for screwing up.
Second, why are the parts of these vehicles which contact aircraft so solidly made? On all the above vehicles even the guard rails are made of square section steel. Perfect for punching through alloy. How about constructing them of something more yielding so that a 10,000 dollar truck is damaged rather than a 100 million dollar aircraft.
Two things I think would help. Fisrt, how about making airside drivers more accountable for the mayhem they cause. Better training and conditions of service would help -coupled with much more stiff penalties for screwing up.
Second, why are the parts of these vehicles which contact aircraft so solidly made? On all the above vehicles even the guard rails are made of square section steel. Perfect for punching through alloy. How about constructing them of something more yielding so that a 10,000 dollar truck is damaged rather than a 100 million dollar aircraft.
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Sounds good to me, but I only operate the aircraft! Well attempt to. Part of it comes down to the cheepest contractor. Pay peanuts you get... . If they are paid more then the contract costs more and they consequently don't get the contract. I see where this is leading..... back to the airfield managers and the accountants with the individual airlines. I agree with your comments but how do we start down this road?
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ACCOUNTABILITY!
You already nailed the answer. This should drive the insurrance rates up for the culprit thus initiating more clever procedures/designs to minimize the big bill.
Economics in the long run should sort this out to something like what the "traffic will bear"
Of course for all I know you might already be there
You already nailed the answer. This should drive the insurrance rates up for the culprit thus initiating more clever procedures/designs to minimize the big bill.
Economics in the long run should sort this out to something like what the "traffic will bear"
Of course for all I know you might already be there
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"...-coupled with much more stiff penalties for screwing up."
I once saw a guy take the wingtip off a 747 with a set of mobile steps. He was sacked. Needless to say, he wasn't in a position to pay the $500,000 damage bill. Stiffer penalties only leaves gaol... or death by firing squad
On the bright side.... At least this sort of thing keeps the Sheetmetal Repair guys in a job <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Rgds.
Q.
P.S. Rumour has it that one guy drove under an airplane in a small tug... and snapped off the lower VHF antenna with his head. Kinda puts your more yielding materials idea to the test!
I once saw a guy take the wingtip off a 747 with a set of mobile steps. He was sacked. Needless to say, he wasn't in a position to pay the $500,000 damage bill. Stiffer penalties only leaves gaol... or death by firing squad
On the bright side.... At least this sort of thing keeps the Sheetmetal Repair guys in a job <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
Rgds.
Q.
P.S. Rumour has it that one guy drove under an airplane in a small tug... and snapped off the lower VHF antenna with his head. Kinda puts your more yielding materials idea to the test!
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Unfortunately the people in ramp handling positions are often treated by others in the industry as the lowest of the low in the pecking order. Until such time as the so called professional members of the industry start treating the ramp handlers with some respect, and as part of the "team", they will generally continue to act in an "irresponsible" manner. People will normally work to the expectation of their "superiors". If you consider that they are careless and irresponsible, they will be.
I have the good fortune to work in an environment where all staff are respected as essential members of a team providing a product to the travelling public. Our "ramp rash" problems have all but disappeared, and new ramp handlers are schooled not only by formal training, but by peer pressure.
Take the time to pass on a word of appreciation to the folks out in the weather getting your aircraft ready for despatch. You may be suprised at the results.
I have the good fortune to work in an environment where all staff are respected as essential members of a team providing a product to the travelling public. Our "ramp rash" problems have all but disappeared, and new ramp handlers are schooled not only by formal training, but by peer pressure.
Take the time to pass on a word of appreciation to the folks out in the weather getting your aircraft ready for despatch. You may be suprised at the results.
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[quote]
Two things I think would help. Fisrt, how about making airside drivers more accountable for the mayhem they cause. Better training and conditions of service would help -coupled with much more stiff penalties for screwing up.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, during my handling days we were always intent on causing as much damage as we could only since we knew we could get away with it. The fact that everything should be done ten minutes ago had nothing to do with the accidents that occured. We were all sadomasochistic too, that was why we so often managed to cause injury to ourselves as well!
We really loved being called into the managers office to be asked why they had the airline rep on the phone yelling about the flight that only got away on schedule, not ahead of it.
Another favourite was being asked in a much raised tone of voice by upset men in suits with gold stripes and peculiar hats why it took ten minutes for the crew bags to be delivered - that sure inspired us to let the job take the time it needed to be performed safely!
Oh, and we loved when the omniscient aircraft drivers happily taxied past not only their assigned gate but also the entire terminal AND the next terminal, just as a practical joke. The challenge of getting to the next arrival in time when they came back again twety minutes late, that was what we lived for!
The maintenance crowd especially appreciated the extra inspections and troubleshooting caused by hard landings, erroneous squawks and general mismanagement of that expensive flying hardware. Of course we know that the pilots are just pulling our legs - after all, they ARE infallible and would never do anything wrong.
It's a disgrace to the entire industry that groundcrews can still be imperfect and be allowed to make mistakes. After all, they are well paid for the responsibility put on their shoulders. Not like the crews who, as we all know, barely receive minimum wage. There should be physical punishment in public, that oughta set them straight!
BTW, if we showed negligence we could be held responsible in court. Oh, the excitement of putting a cargo conveyer through the bulk cargo door of a DC-10 at night with poor to no lighting, at the end of a 13-hour shift, knowing that getting distracted could send you off to face a trial...
Finally someone but me has seen this. It makes me wonder why I left all that for engineering!
Sarcasm? ME?! No way! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
On the serious side, as EME correctly pointed out it's all about money in the end. Pay more, less things get broken. I guess the airlines think they have found a balance between handling and repair costs now or they should do something about it.
As for the equipment, well... I guess a bit of padding could be added in places. But normal operations mean a LOT of wear and tear. Make the equipment less sturdy and it will break a lot. How much would the slot times missed due to broken down ground equipment cost YOUR airline?
As for the square section steel guard rails... those are what was between us and a four meter drop into other equipment while we were handling 500-kg ULDs that would go straight through anything less solid, taking us with them. If thosee guard rails dent an aircraft every now and then... so be it.
Cheers,
/ft
Two things I think would help. Fisrt, how about making airside drivers more accountable for the mayhem they cause. Better training and conditions of service would help -coupled with much more stiff penalties for screwing up.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, during my handling days we were always intent on causing as much damage as we could only since we knew we could get away with it. The fact that everything should be done ten minutes ago had nothing to do with the accidents that occured. We were all sadomasochistic too, that was why we so often managed to cause injury to ourselves as well!
We really loved being called into the managers office to be asked why they had the airline rep on the phone yelling about the flight that only got away on schedule, not ahead of it.
Another favourite was being asked in a much raised tone of voice by upset men in suits with gold stripes and peculiar hats why it took ten minutes for the crew bags to be delivered - that sure inspired us to let the job take the time it needed to be performed safely!
Oh, and we loved when the omniscient aircraft drivers happily taxied past not only their assigned gate but also the entire terminal AND the next terminal, just as a practical joke. The challenge of getting to the next arrival in time when they came back again twety minutes late, that was what we lived for!
The maintenance crowd especially appreciated the extra inspections and troubleshooting caused by hard landings, erroneous squawks and general mismanagement of that expensive flying hardware. Of course we know that the pilots are just pulling our legs - after all, they ARE infallible and would never do anything wrong.
It's a disgrace to the entire industry that groundcrews can still be imperfect and be allowed to make mistakes. After all, they are well paid for the responsibility put on their shoulders. Not like the crews who, as we all know, barely receive minimum wage. There should be physical punishment in public, that oughta set them straight!
BTW, if we showed negligence we could be held responsible in court. Oh, the excitement of putting a cargo conveyer through the bulk cargo door of a DC-10 at night with poor to no lighting, at the end of a 13-hour shift, knowing that getting distracted could send you off to face a trial...
Finally someone but me has seen this. It makes me wonder why I left all that for engineering!
Sarcasm? ME?! No way!
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> On the serious side, as EME correctly pointed out it's all about money in the end. Pay more, less things get broken. I guess the airlines think they have found a balance between handling and repair costs now or they should do something about it.
As for the equipment, well... I guess a bit of padding could be added in places. But normal operations mean a LOT of wear and tear. Make the equipment less sturdy and it will break a lot. How much would the slot times missed due to broken down ground equipment cost YOUR airline?
As for the square section steel guard rails... those are what was between us and a four meter drop into other equipment while we were handling 500-kg ULDs that would go straight through anything less solid, taking us with them. If thosee guard rails dent an aircraft every now and then... so be it.
Cheers,
/ft
Quite a few years ago my aircraft received a broadside from a ramp vehicle whilst boarding pax at BHX. The damage rendered the aircraft unfit for service and we then positioned the aircraft unpressurised to Lasham for repair.
The situation may have changed since then but when I made enquiries I was informed that in the UK it was common practice for operators to have to sign a "disclaimer" indemnifying various agencies which operate on the ramp from any claim in the event of having ones aircraft impaled by same agents.
At that time there had never been a test case in the High Court since a) operators did not want to "upset" the agencies concerned and b) the cost of such action was a lot more than that incurred by the occasional bit of rash etc.
If this is still the case then I believe this policy is misguided. As soon as these agencies feel it where it hurts most (ie by having to pay for any damage) then little will be done to ensure that the individuals on the ramp have a suitable amount of training and a disposition to take due care at all times.
The situation may have changed since then but when I made enquiries I was informed that in the UK it was common practice for operators to have to sign a "disclaimer" indemnifying various agencies which operate on the ramp from any claim in the event of having ones aircraft impaled by same agents.
At that time there had never been a test case in the High Court since a) operators did not want to "upset" the agencies concerned and b) the cost of such action was a lot more than that incurred by the occasional bit of rash etc.
If this is still the case then I believe this policy is misguided. As soon as these agencies feel it where it hurts most (ie by having to pay for any damage) then little will be done to ensure that the individuals on the ramp have a suitable amount of training and a disposition to take due care at all times.
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Think about this guys, just a little. Its very simple, if you make the penalties for accidental damage to an aircraft so stiff do you think any rampies will own up to it if they have not been seen? No!!! As most damage appears to be caused after a PDI, do you fancy flying an A/C with a hole in it? Also consider at most places the rampie that does the final walk round and push back is also the the guy that does the loading!!! so if he knows he's going to lose his meagre livlihood is he gunna tell you?
But hey im only an engineer
But hey im only an engineer
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thatsnomoon,
very well said. Trying to solve problems (system errors) by increasing the penalties and finding scapegoats is taking a 15-20 year step back with regards to human factors. Sure, it's an easy solution but it has been proven time and time again that in the long run it does more harm than good. You have to make (preferrably anonymous and blame-free) deviation reporting an integral part of the work and make everyone feel part of the big picture. It's being done with ATC, pilots, engineers... better include the ramp workers.
Good to see the majority of the posters agreeing on this. Shows that the high standards of PPRuNe aren't a thing of the past IMO.
Cheers,
/ft
very well said. Trying to solve problems (system errors) by increasing the penalties and finding scapegoats is taking a 15-20 year step back with regards to human factors. Sure, it's an easy solution but it has been proven time and time again that in the long run it does more harm than good. You have to make (preferrably anonymous and blame-free) deviation reporting an integral part of the work and make everyone feel part of the big picture. It's being done with ATC, pilots, engineers... better include the ramp workers.
Good to see the majority of the posters agreeing on this. Shows that the high standards of PPRuNe aren't a thing of the past IMO.
Cheers,
/ft
Cunning Artificer
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From the accident report, the tug that took the bottom out of one of our aircraft at LHR last week was unfit to be outside of a workshop. It had already suffered a previous total loss of power and hydraulics without managing to run into anything but was still in service. The poor chap who was driving it could easily have been seriously injured. The aircraft will be out of service for around two months and repairs will cost more than one million eight hundred thousand pounds. A nice case of "Ramp Rash" that is!
The time pressure that is put upon all of those who work in aviation is severe, but merely doing your job is no longer sufficient and an on-time departure isn't good enough. Regular meetings are held in most airlines where responsibility for delays of as little as fifteen minutes on an eight or more hour scheduled service are allocated. Those managers whose section is responsible for a delay make written explanations that go direct to the managing director. Under such conditions it is hardly surprising that there are so many "accidents" The wonder is that there aren't more. What's the use of all this "Human Factors" training that is now included in AME licences? Its all aimed at the wrong people - surely its the company directors of the various companies that must be held accountable. After all, I'm sure it wasn't the driver or even the shift manager that made the decision to keep that tug in service.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
The time pressure that is put upon all of those who work in aviation is severe, but merely doing your job is no longer sufficient and an on-time departure isn't good enough. Regular meetings are held in most airlines where responsibility for delays of as little as fifteen minutes on an eight or more hour scheduled service are allocated. Those managers whose section is responsible for a delay make written explanations that go direct to the managing director. Under such conditions it is hardly surprising that there are so many "accidents" The wonder is that there aren't more. What's the use of all this "Human Factors" training that is now included in AME licences? Its all aimed at the wrong people - surely its the company directors of the various companies that must be held accountable. After all, I'm sure it wasn't the driver or even the shift manager that made the decision to keep that tug in service.
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Through difficulties to the cinema
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Who is holding the bag?
When you land someplace, who watches the plane when you go for lunch?
Do you leave the plane? Do you stay? Who is the local handling agent? One of yours, or a contractor?
Who are the people who take care of your plane in your absence?
Do you think good practices magically appear?
They are implemented by some sort of proactive measures on the part of the person who is responsible for the plane.
If you find yourself flying to someplace on a regular basis, why not take a minute to get to know the ground guys. Let them know (nicely) what you expect. Let them know your are a regular person.
Regardless, where I work, there is a rule. If you whack an airplane, you will not get fired. You may get yelled at (almost a certainty), you may get suspended, but the most important thing is that you fess up. You will get to pee in a bottle, but aside from that, if it was an honest accident, basically, no foul.
The result? In six years, about four ground damages, all negligible.
Communication and cooperation Gents. Treat the ground guys like humans and they will work with you.
PB
When you land someplace, who watches the plane when you go for lunch?
Do you leave the plane? Do you stay? Who is the local handling agent? One of yours, or a contractor?
Who are the people who take care of your plane in your absence?
Do you think good practices magically appear?
They are implemented by some sort of proactive measures on the part of the person who is responsible for the plane.
If you find yourself flying to someplace on a regular basis, why not take a minute to get to know the ground guys. Let them know (nicely) what you expect. Let them know your are a regular person.
Regardless, where I work, there is a rule. If you whack an airplane, you will not get fired. You may get yelled at (almost a certainty), you may get suspended, but the most important thing is that you fess up. You will get to pee in a bottle, but aside from that, if it was an honest accident, basically, no foul.
The result? In six years, about four ground damages, all negligible.
Communication and cooperation Gents. Treat the ground guys like humans and they will work with you.
PB
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Trouble with that, plastic bug is we fly to a different big airport every day of the week. "Getting to know the guys" -much as we'd like to -just isn't going to happen.
Having read the comments above, I can't help feeling this is not so much a tech problem as a "not my budget" type acountant driven problem.
Having read the comments above, I can't help feeling this is not so much a tech problem as a "not my budget" type acountant driven problem.
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BlackSheep,
good example of why quality management should be separate from other kinds of management - and not responsible to the rest of the management. Horrorstory indeed.
Plastic Bug,
ditto in the company I worked for. Unless you were criminally negligent or under the influence, no punishment - as long as you reported. The result? We had really good statistics, even with a lot of new people. The fact that we all knew the statistics is a good example of the work done - the statistics got posted on the noteboard, with comments. QM at work!
ShotOne,
if you make it SOP in your company to say "hi, howsitgoin?" and chat a bit with the ground crews at every airport... you will soon find that you get that extra bit of effort just where it can do some good at every airport. That's how people work. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> We'd work 100% to get every flight off on time... but there were one or two companies where the aircrews often stopped for a chat and for those we'd take a delay personally and give it 102%...
*pssst* And if you want the ramp equivalent of limousine service there's a sure way... use leftover catering for bribes! Your crew bags will be delivered to the cockpit while you're taxiing in... almost. But remember, you didn't hear it from me! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Cheers,
/ft
good example of why quality management should be separate from other kinds of management - and not responsible to the rest of the management. Horrorstory indeed.
Plastic Bug,
ditto in the company I worked for. Unless you were criminally negligent or under the influence, no punishment - as long as you reported. The result? We had really good statistics, even with a lot of new people. The fact that we all knew the statistics is a good example of the work done - the statistics got posted on the noteboard, with comments. QM at work!
ShotOne,
if you make it SOP in your company to say "hi, howsitgoin?" and chat a bit with the ground crews at every airport... you will soon find that you get that extra bit of effort just where it can do some good at every airport. That's how people work. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> We'd work 100% to get every flight off on time... but there were one or two companies where the aircrews often stopped for a chat and for those we'd take a delay personally and give it 102%...
*pssst* And if you want the ramp equivalent of limousine service there's a sure way... use leftover catering for bribes! Your crew bags will be delivered to the cockpit while you're taxiing in... almost. But remember, you didn't hear it from me! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Cheers,
/ft
