Radio Discipline
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 20
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From: Scotland
Radio Discipline
Having read some of the postings on the SAS/Cessna crash at LIN I noted a few comments about communications.
Having had several jump seat trips on my mate's 744 I couldn't help but notice how "relaxed" the radio chat was between Pilots and Controllers. On one trip we followed an Air India 744 out at Heathrow. The tower them instructed us to "follow the Indian" onto the runway takeoff position after he had departed.
Anyway, my point is, being a Railway person messages concerning safety while using the radio are explicitly given.
A train headcode (like a flight number) may be, say 1V50. During a conversation with a signaller we would quote "One Victor Five Zero" EVERY time. AND have it repeated back EVERY time for clarity.
I can't imagine the signaller starting a conversation with "Hello Virgin HST".
Am I missing something through sheer ignorance? Or is radio discipline (especially on the ground during poor visibilty) a contributary factor to these type of accidents?
Having had several jump seat trips on my mate's 744 I couldn't help but notice how "relaxed" the radio chat was between Pilots and Controllers. On one trip we followed an Air India 744 out at Heathrow. The tower them instructed us to "follow the Indian" onto the runway takeoff position after he had departed.
Anyway, my point is, being a Railway person messages concerning safety while using the radio are explicitly given.
A train headcode (like a flight number) may be, say 1V50. During a conversation with a signaller we would quote "One Victor Five Zero" EVERY time. AND have it repeated back EVERY time for clarity.
I can't imagine the signaller starting a conversation with "Hello Virgin HST".
Am I missing something through sheer ignorance? Or is radio discipline (especially on the ground during poor visibilty) a contributary factor to these type of accidents?
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TRAINSPOTTER EH?
NO, THE REFERENCE TO "FOLLOW THE INDIA/INDIAN 747" - IT WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE TO QUOTE A FLIGHT NUMBER ON R/T BETWEEN COCKPIT CREWS. GIVING TAKE OFF CLEARANCE AND LINEUP PERMISSION IS NOT QUOTED IN REFERENCE TO A FLIGHT NUMBER BUT ADDRESSED TO THE CREW AS THIER RESPECTIVE FLIGHT NUMBER
NO, THE REFERENCE TO "FOLLOW THE INDIA/INDIAN 747" - IT WOULD BE INAPPROPRIATE TO QUOTE A FLIGHT NUMBER ON R/T BETWEEN COCKPIT CREWS. GIVING TAKE OFF CLEARANCE AND LINEUP PERMISSION IS NOT QUOTED IN REFERENCE TO A FLIGHT NUMBER BUT ADDRESSED TO THE CREW AS THIER RESPECTIVE FLIGHT NUMBER
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Hey, give the guy a break! He posed a legitimate and thoughtful question based on what he had seen, and also his current work practices.
Flange, I guess we'll have to wait for detailed examination of the ATC tapes to see if RT was a causal factor. Didn't there always used to be a "rolling" call in poor viz?? My parchment copy of RT procedures is going mouldy, so can't find a reference.
Flange, I guess we'll have to wait for detailed examination of the ATC tapes to see if RT was a causal factor. Didn't there always used to be a "rolling" call in poor viz?? My parchment copy of RT procedures is going mouldy, so can't find a reference.
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 20
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From: Scotland
Chiglet
Please, please! Don't be under the impression that I am implying that Pilots are unprofessional.
Having the PRIVILEDGE of the jumpseat on my mate's 744 is in my book (not my trainspotting book) nothing short of awe inspiring.
The guys in seats 1A and 1B are the epitomy of professionalism. My trade could learn a great deal from the Pilot Profession.
I used to be a nervous flyer until I had a trip at the sharp end.
Now I just sit back, relax, and let the plane take the strain!
Saint-Ex
Sorry for being so abrupt.
As a qualified Train Driver in a suit I think I can speak with authority on the subject. No Driver EVER get's out of his or her bed in the morning with the intention of having a SPaD (Signal Passed at Danger). It is THE cardinal sin. It is also the worst feeling of your life (especially if you know that it's you who has f****d up)
My company (or any other) does not "allow" drivers to pass red signal and stop at the next. Though, unfortunately it does happen (very infrequently).
Like the Pilot, the Train Driver (in the UK) has his destiny in his own hands (literally). The days of widespread ATP (Automatic Train Protection) fittment are some way off.
Ever heard of Human Factors?
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: flange lubricator ]
Please, please! Don't be under the impression that I am implying that Pilots are unprofessional.
Having the PRIVILEDGE of the jumpseat on my mate's 744 is in my book (not my trainspotting book) nothing short of awe inspiring.
The guys in seats 1A and 1B are the epitomy of professionalism. My trade could learn a great deal from the Pilot Profession.
I used to be a nervous flyer until I had a trip at the sharp end.
Now I just sit back, relax, and let the plane take the strain!
Saint-Ex
Sorry for being so abrupt.
As a qualified Train Driver in a suit I think I can speak with authority on the subject. No Driver EVER get's out of his or her bed in the morning with the intention of having a SPaD (Signal Passed at Danger). It is THE cardinal sin. It is also the worst feeling of your life (especially if you know that it's you who has f****d up)
My company (or any other) does not "allow" drivers to pass red signal and stop at the next. Though, unfortunately it does happen (very infrequently).
Like the Pilot, the Train Driver (in the UK) has his destiny in his own hands (literally). The days of widespread ATP (Automatic Train Protection) fittment are some way off.
Ever heard of Human Factors?
[ 12 October 2001: Message edited by: flange lubricator ]
Joined: Feb 2000
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Flange Lubricator.
Quite understand and, of course, Human Factors play an important role. To ignore a red warning in the aviation world is a cardinal sin. However as I watch car drivers ignoring red lights every day I am on the road, I have to wonder if it is an just another example of a lack of discipline prevelant in modern day society.
Quite understand and, of course, Human Factors play an important role. To ignore a red warning in the aviation world is a cardinal sin. However as I watch car drivers ignoring red lights every day I am on the road, I have to wonder if it is an just another example of a lack of discipline prevelant in modern day society.
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Non-Aircrew
Posts: 578
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From: Northampton, England
Nearest aviation equivalent to a SPAD might be a runway over run. Nobody sets out to do it, sometimes its the pilot/driver who screws up other times circumstances conspire to erode all the built in safety margins.
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 173
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From: UK
The general rt discipline in FIR'S is not as good as it good be, the standard of initial calls has been so poor that the caa have issued an AIC 73/2001 (yellow58) 28 sep 2001 that highlights the point. The following is a link to the page.Yellow 58 RTF Discipline
During a recent visit to EGNX during low viz the RT phrases Call rolling and Call Airbourne were both used by controllers everyday, this supports others postings about improving situational awareness.
However this is sometimes only possible at quieter airfields, some operators use a visual check of the approach and the TCAS on every departure, low viz or not.
Comments anyone including Flange's !!
[ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: fadec_primary_channel ]
During a recent visit to EGNX during low viz the RT phrases Call rolling and Call Airbourne were both used by controllers everyday, this supports others postings about improving situational awareness.
However this is sometimes only possible at quieter airfields, some operators use a visual check of the approach and the TCAS on every departure, low viz or not.
Comments anyone including Flange's !![ 17 October 2001: Message edited by: fadec_primary_channel ]