Why does only UK give 'track miles to run'?
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Why does only UK give 'track miles to run'?
LHR always give the number of track miles to touchdown on giving a descent below transition level. Do they have special technology to do this, as they seem to be the only people that give this valuable information.
Going into Madrid the other night, given the notorious 'downwind snatch', plus kept high and fast. Asked how many track miles to go, and the guy didn't know! No wonder we have so many 'interesting approaches' into some of these airports. He obviously asked someone else, and came back a minute later.
My point is that he was giving descent and speed control without knowing how many miles we had to touchdown! How do LHR get this info. and why doesn't anybody else seem to know (or care it seems)?
Going into Madrid the other night, given the notorious 'downwind snatch', plus kept high and fast. Asked how many track miles to go, and the guy didn't know! No wonder we have so many 'interesting approaches' into some of these airports. He obviously asked someone else, and came back a minute later.
My point is that he was giving descent and speed control without knowing how many miles we had to touchdown! How do LHR get this info. and why doesn't anybody else seem to know (or care it seems)?
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BmPilot21,
I'm sure one of my colleagues in TC will jump in, but I'm not aware of any special technology! It's all just down to working back from the a/c that's just establishing.
Gonzo.
(PS You may want to repeat this question in the ATC forum.)
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Gonzo ]
I'm sure one of my colleagues in TC will jump in, but I'm not aware of any special technology! It's all just down to working back from the a/c that's just establishing.
Gonzo.
(PS You may want to repeat this question in the ATC forum.)
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Gonzo ]
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BmPilot21---
MAD is not so bad, once you get used to the place.
Edited by moderator - wielding my big stick tonight to keep the forum purely Tech based. Any other comment is unnecessary to the discussion. Comment furthur down relating to this removed as well.
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: Checkboard ]
MAD is not so bad, once you get used to the place.
Edited by moderator - wielding my big stick tonight to keep the forum purely Tech based. Any other comment is unnecessary to the discussion. Comment furthur down relating to this removed as well.
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: Checkboard ]
Cairns in Australia does it too, although I cannot think of any other Oz airports that do it.
Very useful as when they vector you around the hills traffic dictates how far you get vectored before bringing you in, so situational awareness is not really an issue - your descent point is in the lap of the Gods. um er controllers.
Very useful as when they vector you around the hills traffic dictates how far you get vectored before bringing you in, so situational awareness is not really an issue - your descent point is in the lap of the Gods. um er controllers.
As many of you probably know, Sydney does give track miles to run just about every arrival. Of course they are, without exception, woefully inaccurate, but then again, that would take the fun out of the traditional Sydney slam dunk... 
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Even in Europe there are more places that give it, in GVA they sometimes do and in germany i've been given trackmiles more than once!
I agree with 411a, that you should base your approach on your own situational awareness and see the trackmiles given as an extra confirmation.
I agree with 411a, that you should base your approach on your own situational awareness and see the trackmiles given as an extra confirmation.
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411a, yes I'm a junior guy, flying a glass 737 (as my profile says). I agree that its up to me to know how many miles to touchdown IF I know what routing I'll be doing. My point is that MAD continuously cut the corner on the descent as well as keeping you high and fast. I cannot predict how many miles we've got to run as they keep cutting us in early. Yes, I can predict a snatch on the FMS, and so work out the 'worst case' profile. Unfortunately, ATC have other ideas and won't let us descend.
My point is that the ATC guy is controlling our descent and speed, and HE doesn't know how many miles I've got to run. We can ask for repositioning etc. but this is obviously undesirable.
Also, some ATC guys just don't understand that we can't 'go down and slow down'. Doing a Riviera approach into Nice the other day, we were asked to maintain 180 to 4 dme!!!!
Yeah, right! Gear down, flap 30, 135 knots at 4 miles and we were still struggling to make the steep approach and get it stable.
My point is that the ATC guy is controlling our descent and speed, and HE doesn't know how many miles I've got to run. We can ask for repositioning etc. but this is obviously undesirable.
Also, some ATC guys just don't understand that we can't 'go down and slow down'. Doing a Riviera approach into Nice the other day, we were asked to maintain 180 to 4 dme!!!!
Yeah, right! Gear down, flap 30, 135 knots at 4 miles and we were still struggling to make the steep approach and get it stable.
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As a TC person I'd better jump in then. Firstly at TC we do not have any technology apart fron the four or five times table (thanks CP) to work out your distance from touchdown.
We give it because we are required to, once on initial descent and again on handover to the No. 2 director (120.4)- the latter should be more accurate.
In defence of our foreign colleagues, the Heathrow pattern is well established and because of continuous descent approaches, you will usually get a distance of 20 - 25 miles from initial descent from min stack.
I assume other airports dont have to conform to the ridgid rules laid down for us.
Hope this helps.
We give it because we are required to, once on initial descent and again on handover to the No. 2 director (120.4)- the latter should be more accurate.
In defence of our foreign colleagues, the Heathrow pattern is well established and because of continuous descent approaches, you will usually get a distance of 20 - 25 miles from initial descent from min stack.
I assume other airports dont have to conform to the ridgid rules laid down for us.
Hope this helps.
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BmPilot21--
Very simple solution, simply TELL the Madrid controller that you must reduce speed, if it looks like the plot will not work out and you are kept high. If you say nothing, how are they to know?
Has worked for me many times. If you should land long and overrun (for example), you could hardly tell the Board of Investigation that...the controller made me do it.
Speak up if you don't like the situation.
Very simple solution, simply TELL the Madrid controller that you must reduce speed, if it looks like the plot will not work out and you are kept high. If you say nothing, how are they to know?
Has worked for me many times. If you should land long and overrun (for example), you could hardly tell the Board of Investigation that...the controller made me do it.
Speak up if you don't like the situation.
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Bmpilot21
All these local anomalies are fine -once you know what to expect!For example for MAD R33 I always plan from the SLP to a point three miles west of Perales VOR, if they make me go to PARLA then change it and go V/S.Some guys leave the whole arrival in but put in a hard altitude lower than normal somewhere on the arrival.
Nice is another place you occasionally just have to shake your head in disbelief and say NO Thanks
I was in MAD last week and I said to the FO that the UK controllers would have a heart attack with some normal ops there, especially on the ground, where I use all available lighting! I enjoy it though, you can't afford to snooze thats for sure.
All these local anomalies are fine -once you know what to expect!For example for MAD R33 I always plan from the SLP to a point three miles west of Perales VOR, if they make me go to PARLA then change it and go V/S.Some guys leave the whole arrival in but put in a hard altitude lower than normal somewhere on the arrival.
Nice is another place you occasionally just have to shake your head in disbelief and say NO Thanks
I was in MAD last week and I said to the FO that the UK controllers would have a heart attack with some normal ops there, especially on the ground, where I use all available lighting! I enjoy it though, you can't afford to snooze thats for sure.
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Why not try ARN or FRA they both give track miles to run as well as GVA (on a Good day) LYS and others, also experienced track miles to run in MAD! Your argument does not stand up, in a place like MAD always compute the worst case scenario, if you end up well under the profile well so be it , better than doing a rushed approach followed by a go around. 
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oh, you get track miles in ZRH as well. Well, I guess they have to, as they will keep vectoring you around to no end (ever done the Black Forest 1 arrival?), all to suddenly tell you "blubair 123, 25 track miles, is that good enough for u?". As your still at FL120 u would worry, but, flying the split a.. mini 4 holer, just open up and dive for it
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As elandel says, there is no special hardware for working this out.
Basically - you are taught a way (by CP!!) that is really easy:
1. Find an a/c on the final approach at the 10-15 mile mark.
2. Then add up in 5's - as a 3 mile spaced aircraft will catch up one mile going downwind to base (and reducing speed to 180) and one mile on the closing hdg (and speed back to 160/170)
3. Obviously, if there are a lot of heavies then they need 4 miles so some add up in 6's then. But if there is a mix, it is easier to just add up in 5's!! (my 5x table is better than addin a few 4's, a couple of 3's, a 5 and a six!!!!)
Interstingly, a lot of the experienced controllers went to the Air Traffic Management Development Centre recently to conduct a trial with a new computer which works out miles and helps get the aircraft off the stacks at the right time. EVERYONE was proved to be UNDERESTIMATING this range from touchdown! Still at trial stage though!!!
Hope the range is given correctly, as CDA's are becoming increasingly important at LHR.
Ranges should be given when handed over from No 1 Director (119.72/134.97) which is an estimate as the No 2 will fine tune and will give a more accurate range on first contact. That is why they may be a bit different before you ask!!!
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B-L
Basically - you are taught a way (by CP!!) that is really easy:
1. Find an a/c on the final approach at the 10-15 mile mark.
2. Then add up in 5's - as a 3 mile spaced aircraft will catch up one mile going downwind to base (and reducing speed to 180) and one mile on the closing hdg (and speed back to 160/170)
3. Obviously, if there are a lot of heavies then they need 4 miles so some add up in 6's then. But if there is a mix, it is easier to just add up in 5's!! (my 5x table is better than addin a few 4's, a couple of 3's, a 5 and a six!!!!)
Interstingly, a lot of the experienced controllers went to the Air Traffic Management Development Centre recently to conduct a trial with a new computer which works out miles and helps get the aircraft off the stacks at the right time. EVERYONE was proved to be UNDERESTIMATING this range from touchdown! Still at trial stage though!!!
Hope the range is given correctly, as CDA's are becoming increasingly important at LHR.
Ranges should be given when handed over from No 1 Director (119.72/134.97) which is an estimate as the No 2 will fine tune and will give a more accurate range on first contact. That is why they may be a bit different before you ask!!!
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B-L
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Evenin'
I believe another of the reasons we concern ourselves with ranges is so that we provide a good service to you flyboys; it helps you to know where you are and what you need to do in order to achieve a good descent profile.
Having been invloved at the ATMDC I am able to pass on a little bit more: One of the tools we are working on is SASS (Stack Advisory Support System). It uses the landing order, known speeds (corrected for TAS), wind data and "standard" tracks off the stacks to compute stack departure times. They are VERY good. Once off the stack the time changes to a range which is computed from the same factors. The ranges count down as the aircraft gets closer.
An interesting point has come up in the development process: If your track to touchdown is 24 miles long and have a strong tailwind for a significant part of that track then, because your groundspeed is high, you spend less TIME in the air than if there were no wind at all. The question is therefore, when we give you a TRACK mileage to run do you assess what the wind is when you set up your rate of descent? If not, how do you know what rate to set up? Would you prefer to be given AIR miles to run?
This piece of kit is very good, to the extent that it will "regularise" the intermediate approach and reduce much of the doglegging. It is also less likely that we will miss the correct stack departure which means there will be fewer occasions where we chase the approach, which will reduce the chance of a rushed approach. It therefore enhances safety.
Twenty point four.
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: 120.4 ]
I believe another of the reasons we concern ourselves with ranges is so that we provide a good service to you flyboys; it helps you to know where you are and what you need to do in order to achieve a good descent profile.
Having been invloved at the ATMDC I am able to pass on a little bit more: One of the tools we are working on is SASS (Stack Advisory Support System). It uses the landing order, known speeds (corrected for TAS), wind data and "standard" tracks off the stacks to compute stack departure times. They are VERY good. Once off the stack the time changes to a range which is computed from the same factors. The ranges count down as the aircraft gets closer.
An interesting point has come up in the development process: If your track to touchdown is 24 miles long and have a strong tailwind for a significant part of that track then, because your groundspeed is high, you spend less TIME in the air than if there were no wind at all. The question is therefore, when we give you a TRACK mileage to run do you assess what the wind is when you set up your rate of descent? If not, how do you know what rate to set up? Would you prefer to be given AIR miles to run?
This piece of kit is very good, to the extent that it will "regularise" the intermediate approach and reduce much of the doglegging. It is also less likely that we will miss the correct stack departure which means there will be fewer occasions where we chase the approach, which will reduce the chance of a rushed approach. It therefore enhances safety.
Twenty point four.
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: 120.4 ]
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We are waiting for a dynamic wind input which both SASS and FAST need for accuracy. Also SASS has to be NODELised and technically scrutinised before it can go operational so I believe the time scale is late 2003. Pity really because it is a most desireable piece of kit.
point four
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: 120.4 ]
point four
[ 18 August 2001: Message edited by: 120.4 ]
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Sounds great, point 4. You alreadt to a good job, so anything that enhances that and reduces stack times has to be good. The only thing I can see, is that the computers will become so accurate, but pilots won't! For instance this will rely on '160 to 4', but obviously the exact time that people slow down varies - some start to slow down at 4, others at 5 etc.
This also leads onto your other question - I don't take too much notice of the wind UNLESS there is a tailwind, then the alrm bells start ringing and we try to slow it up and get down ASAP, as they can really screw you up. So, we will generally slow up a bit before 4 dme if we have a tailwind. If you could accurately give AIR miles to run, that would be brilliant! That would make things far easier.
This also leads onto your other question - I don't take too much notice of the wind UNLESS there is a tailwind, then the alrm bells start ringing and we try to slow it up and get down ASAP, as they can really screw you up. So, we will generally slow up a bit before 4 dme if we have a tailwind. If you could accurately give AIR miles to run, that would be brilliant! That would make things far easier.