Foreign Pilots, etc.,
 

Dear TDKmk2, I think you are missing my point completely,as John F. and I have said the main objection I have is 'flagging out' however I have spoken to several (unemployed) colleagues and they do firmly believe that they should have priority over foreigners. In my own experience it is not easy to get a job in europe as they apply the dictum that a they will ony look outside their own borders if there is not a suitable candidate within. Another point I have heard mentioned - from a few people, is that passengers are not always happy to hear a foreigner making a PA especially if the pilot almost needs the services of a translator. This thread was started as a question to John F. to find out what Balpa was going to do about securing my career and that of many of my colleagues, as I said altruism won't pay the mortgage and charity must begin at home or maybe we should all be clamouring to go into the euro/open border/ pan european federation. Don't take it personally ,it is the system which needs to be looked at.
what do other people think about this issue, should british companies be looking more within their own borders for pilots to fly british a/c? YES - NO - DON'T CARE

Perhaps not a popular reply but sometimes, just sometimes people don't get the jobs for a reason. They may not bee too good!

pipistrelle:

"...that they should have priority over foreigners"

This is an extremely dangerous attitude to take. I would suggest that there are far more British pilots flying for overseas airlines than vice versa (SQ, CX and EK just for example).

I have personally flown for airlines in the USA, the Far East, the Pacific and am currently flying for a European airline. I think British pilots have traditionally gone wherever the work is.

We have about 15 different nationalities in my present company and we ALL get on very well with each other.

I do however agree that the practice of flagging-in should be stopped.

[q]I think British pilots have traditionally gone wherever the work is.[/q]

well i guess pilots from other countries are doing that too no ?

Seems to me that there are two issues here. Should European pilots have equal opportunities to work in the UK? Of course, because we can work in their countries. "<I know that there is very little chance of getting a job with the likes of AF, LH, IB, etc, but that is not the point>. However, the likes of wet leasing jobs out to non EU pilots just because its cheaper or easier is just not on. Studi, How would you feel if LH employed a non EU citizen instead of you?

Another Brit complaining about foreign pilots. If only all Brits working overseas come to UK to fly I don´t think there will be any jobs for you my friend. Anyway do you know how many foreign airlines with bases in the UK are at the moment, I think they should be kicked out to, jeahh! and then will see where is that going to leave you.
I can only sujest you learn another language and get a job somewhere else although that may be a pretty difficult task for you, so better get a job in Mc Donalds because with your attitude don´t think you´ll go far in this industry and live all the people who worked hard and spend all our money to fund your CAA fly aeroplanes.
Maybe you are just not cut out for this job my friend.

P.S. Speaking two languages is a good thing and very handly when you go overseas (certainly my company thinks so) and my PAs are just fantastic and if you don´t like them just up.....

Good luck with your job hunting and remember not hard feelings my friend. :D :D :D

I accept all the various reasons/opinions expressed on this subject especially al e vator's very relevant point about not accepting someone if they are not good enough just because they are a national of whatever country. Studi I wish you luck, your comment on european integration is also pertinent but how many of the companies 'flagging out' are employing europeans?JW411 I'm sure that there is some connection with SQ & CX on a colonial basis and their ethos of hiring foreign pilots, when did they open their first flight training school? There already exists a situation in this country, of employing locals over 'outsiders' namely the channel islands - rights of residency etc.,
I know that other professions (e.g. medicine/nursing) actively seek qualified staff overseas but that is mainly because there are not enough personnel here to fill the shortfall
Please do not misconstrue comments as racist /nationalist in any way, that is not my intention, it is just that I know many people desperately looking for a chance to be employed in their own country. Flagging out might be a short term solution to some of the seasonal operators problems but not to our unemployed colleagues.

Pipistrelle, I'm aware of the main issue but am more concerned about this chip you seem to have on your shoulder regarding people with foreign accents. You seem to suggest that they are somehow less worthy of a job than a British born person.

Three examples in my own company:

1. An American who is married to a British Citizen

2. A Frenchman who did a CAP509 here and has never worked as a pilot in France and indeed doesn't even have a french licence

3. Myself, an Antipodean who has been paying taxes into HM exchequer for the best part of 10 years which is most of my adult life and who spent the best part of £30,000 on flying training in THIS country before securing myself a hard earned job. HM Home Office afford me indefinate leave to work and remain here on the basis of ancestery and I will eventually hold a British passport.

Are you seriously going to tell any one of us that we are any less worthy of our jobs now that there are British pilots out of work than we were when times were good???

The principle of marriage should provide for the couple to live and work freely in either of their citizens countries, or would you disaggree with that?

Like it or not Britain is part of the European Community and increasingly global economy. The EU provides not only the benefits of free trade but also free movement and work rights of it's member states citizens - that's the law.

To take up JW411s point, historically the U.K. licence has been recognised everywhere and British pilots have and still provide their services to operations around the world and particularly in former colonies.

My point is that you can't just assume that just because someone speaks with a foriegn accent that they have less rights than a 'local' person. There's a word for attitudes like that and it starts with X. Britain is supposed to be a tolerant and decent society and if you believe that immigration policy has admitted too many like me and my 'foreign' colleagues then maybe you should go and join up with one of those extreme right wing minority parties and swap ideas with like minded people because I think you'll find that most decent and fairminded folk wouldn't agree once they'd heard the facts as opposed to your anti 'foreign' soundbites...

Dear Jedy,
Oh dear I seem to have struck a raw nerve. I'm sure you'll be able to enlighten us with the number of foreign airlines that are in the UK, is it relevant to the topic??
I do speak two languages in addition to english, I do have a job and I have been in aviation for over twenty five years - Mcdonalds - is that the end result of your national pastime?? and finally, if your ' Just fantastic' PA's are any thing like your written text then I'm sure they are very entertaining

studi:

I note that as a Swiss national you are hoping for a career with Lufthansa. I wish you well in your endeavours.

I wonder if your prospects might be better if Switzerland was to join the European Community or, for that matter, the United Nations?

Would most of you please pull your head out from under the sand !!!

I am a brit working for a british company in Britian, do you have any idea how many aussies, kiwis, south africians etc are working in my company and others???????

When I am at work, flying through the London TMA myself and the skipper find ourselves playing a game of find the brits on the R/T flying for British airlines... Most days it is quite shocking how many are from around the world!!!!!!

Most of you do-gooders won't like this reply but feel free to have a go as I really don't care, because I know most of my freinds and co-workers in this industry feel the same>>>>>>>>:mad:

Nice one power lever, glad you and your Captain have the humility to rise above it and find the humourous side - maybe one day we can have a good old knees up old chap and celebrate the British empire. I'll talk with a spoon in my mouth and you can take the p!ss out of my antipodean vernecular! Nothing like a bit of national pride is there...?

Well said Power Lever. You are not politically correct, but you are correct. We also have fun on the radio...nuff said.

I'm afraid we live in a very tolerant society. No beef with the experienced type rated lads; just think its a bit off when lots of entry level jobs are taken by foreigners (another dirty word) when 100's of chaps are watching 'supermaket sweep' at home. The 'they probably are not good enough' line is somewhat flawed. :rolleyes:


DW

Bad luck DW, I took my chances and parted with my hardearned, sweated my IRT, then trod water for 18 months waiting for my chance to play with the big boys. Red passport or no I've paid my dues over here and don't take kindly to folk suggesting that someone else deserves my job more than me just because I was born on the wrong side of the equator.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if HM Home Office says that 'foreigners' like me can work here then we have the same employment rights as you 'local types' - that's the law. If you don't like it then go join the BNP...

OK, then...

I'll see your protectionism and raise you by a little xenofobia...

Card? Not? OK - let's trade pilots!

I've got 5 british pilots. Now show me some scandihooligans!

Sorry, better luck next time. Wanna play again?:p

Brgds,
Empty

Little reactionary arn't we TDK mk2, 'Thats the law - if you don't like it, join the BNP.' Good to know the psychometrics are working as well as ever.

Just expressing an opinion old bean , its a free country - THATS the law, if you don't like it you can .... ..... post a reply :D

Is this not truly pathetic? Now we have children lose in the London TMA counting foreign accents instead of listening to the important things that are going on around them!

Grow up for goodness sake.

JW411

Children in the london tma!!!!
No, I am good at my job, I can multi task you know.

Wind your neck in you pratt.:o

Foreign Pilots
 

Jobs are scarce for everyone, employers can not be racist, any opportunity is open for everybody who has the correct qualifications, so pull your necks in and accept the multinational status of the airline industry.
The locking of flightdeck doors must be getting to some of the knob heads out there, breath easy.

Fair enough Dreamweaver! I'm sure you're a sweet guy really and would know when to keep your opinions to yourself. However there are a few out there with a chip on their shoulder who aren't quite as diplomatic, and fall neatly into the catagory covered in the 'captains from hell' thread. By the way power lever, how's the job hunting coming along? Good thing you're so good at your job with those dodgy skippers making up their own SOPs at your company...

Im just curious how many complainers are actually members of Balpa?

I have heard a lot of guys complain about foreign pilots but then when asked if they are in the union (who else will do something about it) they just start muttering

I thank each and every non member for my three years flying a G reg jet around Europe from Manchester and Stanstead. Usually the non members were the biggest complainers. Interestingly enough they were doing the least about it.

Wanna keep british flying jobs for british citizens? First step is to strengthen your union and speak with one voice.


Cheers
Wino (voted chief recruiter for Balpa at that ASH Bash)

Actually wino that's how this all started, Pipistrelle asked one of the candidates in the BALPA General Secretary election what he planned to do about all these 'misemployed' foreign pilots if he was elected and I asked him if he would represent me equally as a 'foreign' member living and working legally in Britain. The answer was that 'membership is open to all flying on U.K. licenses or involved in British commercial flying'- nationality is not an issue...

My goodness what a can of worms I appear to have opened, let me reply in a non political way; - JW411 are you tone deaf?? TDKmk2 you continue to fog the issue with a quasi-political slant, firstly you you raise the spectre of xenophobia - what is the immigration policy in your own country (or ex-country)?? secondly,Your continual references to the comment I raised seems to be supported by the straw poll I posted, it was not my intention to make an emotive issue over our union and its' ability to safeguard the job security of the indigenous population of pilots. Your repeated references to membership of the bnp are at best misguided, certainly in my case. The issue of marriage is a particularly poor example to discuss as it is common knowledge that it has/is being used & abused as a back door into this country.
Once again I state that I think a mixture of new blood into any organisation is healthy, I believe that our overseas brethern should have a free place here but I also believe that our unemployed guys here have first call to work in their own country. Possibly the more politically correct amongst those who disagree with me would also like to see the denizens of the sangatte camp given free rein to enter the country.

Empty Cruise WTF are you wittering on about???

power lever:

I thank you for your mature and measured response. You have indeed confirmed my worst fears.

Factual note: Switzerland joined the UN a couple of months ago.

Second factual note: It is absolutely, totally legally impossible not to accept EU citizens as workers. It is also illegal (for reasons of UK law, not EU regts) to favour any group over another, so long as the person in question have a work permit and is better qualified than the other candidates. It should be obvious that choosing people by their professional ability ensures getting the best people; any other criterion is inefficient, quite apart from being morally wrong.

Globalisation is the word of the moment . G8 , CHOGM and all that, I am refering to ofcourse.
But Globalisation , reaching aviation, is a far cry. ICAO is a toothless Tiger.
Take me for example. I have an Australian ATPL, USATP, and New Zealand ATP, I also have a British Passport. Now for me to fly in Europe requires $25000 USD and six months free time to convert my licence, the fact that my other licences are "ICAO" means nothing to the JAR.
I applaud however the JAR formation, the fact that it excludes the rest of the worlds qualifications and not vice versa, is puzling!!:rolleyes:
Anyway I am traveling to the U.K to get an CAA appraisel of my quals will cost me 75 pounds, I HOPE ITS WORTH IT!

JW411

No problem, it's so much fun winding you up. You really do bite a little quick.


Chill out fool.

Unlike you power lever, who's a bit slow off the mark. Steamchicken is the voice of reason here tho and Pipistrelle immigration IS a political issue if you hadn't noticed. If you didn't want to raise an emotive issue then why the emotive comments in the first place? You've made it clear that Flagging out isn't the only area in which you feel that people without British passports are doing work that unemployed British people should be doing. You were the one that suggested (in the BALPA GS thread) that the statutes are letting to many 'foreigners' in and therefore I suggested that a political party such as the BNP might be a good starting point to work toward changing them.

And the immigration policy of my ex country is completely irrelevant, although I will say that generally speaking the people are amounst the most bigotted and xenophobic of any people anywhere - but that's what you get from an Island mentality. If you want to see an indigenous population that's been comprehensively shafted it's all down there for the world to see. I'm ashamed of what the country I was born in did and in some ways continues to do. Think I've said enough.

Pipistrelle,

My witterings take the general direction that my company employs 5 UK pilots. I was just wondering if we should have given scandinavian pilots (quite a lot of them unemployed - and apparently more to come :( ) the first right to work here - because then you would be 5 UK pilots up that would be looking for jobs - in the UK, of course.

I would be very interested to see the following numbers:

1) UK pilots working for non-UK companies
2) Nun-UK pilots working for UK companies

This would give us a quick indicator on who stood to lose the most if your suggestions were used in real life.

As the gentelman that my wife does not think I am, I will start:

5 UK pilots in non-UK business!

Brgds,
Empty

PS. Using the WTF acronym will not - contrary to what most people expect - disguise your inability to understand metaphors :D

The issue is not UK pilots working abroad, nor foreign pilots employed in the UK.

The issue is of non-EU pilots working in the UK when UK pilots are barred from working in the respective countries.

The issue is also about whether, since the UK has many EU citizens working as pilots, the rest of the EU raises artificial barriers to UK pilots in contravention of EU law.

It is, further, whether the UK actively encourages (by means of tax breaks, relaxing of roster rules etc.) airlines to recruit abroad when there are significant numbers of UK pilots looking for work.

The issue is whether the UK government is prepared to put its money where its (fairly considerable) mouth is.

I read it all and I am amazed by certain comments that some people put here !!

I would like to enlighten a few points :

1. Someone mentioned the fact that many airlines in Britain are owned by foreign countries. I can start a list for you :
BRITANNIA owned by a German Tour Operator,
KLM UK owned by KLM,
Easyjet created by a Greek citizen...
So should Easyjet recruit only Greek Pilots then ????
Or Britannia only German pilots ???????

2. Some UK airline have bases abroad and fly internal routes in other countries (ex : Easyjet in GVA). Should those airlines recruit local people in priority ?

3. About the comment concerning Passengers who supposingly don't like PA with people "with accents" (There are so many accents in the UK anyway). What do you think of British airlines operating internal flights in France, and the "poor" passengers who have to listen to "horrible" PA in english ? (Ex : Buzz, Easyjet...)

4. A lot of airline in the UK operates for Foreign airlines. And therefore are offered business by (dirty :D ) foreign country (Ex : British European for Air France).

5. If more Brits would bother with speaking other langages, they would probably get more jobs with the like of AF, LH or IB... But unfortunatelly, very few are fluent enough to even consider applying in any of the mentioned countries. Check for example the Air France site, and it is clearly said that to apply, you must be EU Citizen AND speak fluently french

Check http://www.airfrance.com/double6/FR/...?OpenDocument#
(for those speaking french of course).

6. Why airlines are recruiting foreigners ? Because we are in common market in EU and Jobs have to be available to whoever qualify for the Job. There are many Brits working abroad in Europe in every job sectors and it is the same in the airline industry...

And just to wind up some of the people involved in this thread :
I am a (horrible) foreigner from another EU country, I have a UK ATPL and fly for a BRITISH airline. I was SPONSORED by this airline after going through selections against mainly BRITISH people. I have never flown in my country of origin...

Just a little add-on, one of the first action of A. Hitler when he got in power was to secure jobs for Germans only (pure ones)... just a thought... :)

I feel that I have to step in to this discussion as there a few people posting on here who are either extremely naive or so poorly educated to be bordering on extreme xenophobic. To suggest that you can tell who is a 'foreign' pilot just because of his or her accent on the airwaves is just plain pathetic.

There are many pilots of 'foreign' birth who are British or EU citizens by various rights and there are even UK born pilots who speak with a foreign accent because of where they were brought up. Did you know that wherever you were living and whatever accent you were listening to when you were in your mid to late teens is the accent you tend to keep for the rest of your life?

The title and some of the discussion being raised in this topic show poorly thought out argument. To me it smacks of ultra right wing politics and is just a short step away from demanding to know what ones religious or ethnic background is before accepting that someone deserves a job as a pilot. I find it very worrying that there are people who can still make this argument in this day and age and embarrasing that they should be pilots with a professional license.

On the one hand I can understand the frustration of a newly licenced pilot with a frozen ATPL trying to secure a job but to launch into this kind of debate with poorly researched data and use terminology such as
"...passengers are not always happy to hear a foreigner making a PA especially if the pilot almost needs the services of a translator..." or even worse "...myself and the skipper find ourselves playing a game of find the brits on the R/T flying for British airlines... Most days it is quite shocking how many are from around the world!..." is just plain xenophobia. If you are going to debate the issue of being British with a CAA ATPL but unable to get a job for a British airline becuase they have WET LEASED an aircraft from outside the EU then fine, but realise that it is because of a largely ignorant and poorly informed section of the CAA and the civil service that is at fault and assisted by airlines that care far more for their shareholders than their pilots.

Can we cut the 'facade' of indignant outrage at 'Johnny foreigner' has taken my rightful job and stick to the real issue of flagging out. It is scary knowing there are pilots out there who actually play 'spot the foreigner flying for a Brit airline'. I would be ashamed to admit to such extreme attitudes and I think you should be too. Here's a hint: Don't admit to this attitude if you are applying for a job with an airline because if you have it may be the reason why you haven't secured that dream job in the first place!

Capt PPRuNe:

Well said Danny; I could not agree with you more. I'm afraid that a few of the posters on this thread could best be described as inexperienced sciolists. It makes me shudder to think that their CVs might just be in the company in-tray!

Goodness me, this all got a little heated.
I think we all should be greatfull we have a job at the moment, rather then which nationality has the right to the job.

Captain Stable, I stand corrected as far as that part of the debate goes :o - however found that some of the remarks made in the debate took the "other" direction.

Danny - said it all! :cool:

Brgds,
Empty

I'm an Aussie with UK ATPL working in the UK for a British company. I can do this as I have a permanent resident visa issued on the grounds of marriage, not my chosen profession. I've been married 10 years and have 2 British/Australian kids, have been a member of BALPA since I obtained my licence here and pay my taxes. Thank you to the sensible people out there for your support on this 'thread' and to the others, well the less said about you the better.

I do agree that this thread has gone too far down a rather unpleasant route, however the use of the X-word is just OTT, nowhere did I see any reference to a "morbid dislike of foreigners" the only extreme dislikes I saw expressed were those which denigrate anyone who expressed any concerns about the open door to our job market. The thread when posted was never intended to cause insult or offence, I apologise if that was not the case but it is a pretty sad sign of the times when an open question cannot be raised without the politically correct brigade tainting it with their own form of closed mindedness.
Once again my original point asking if british companies should look more to the home pilot pool still stands..

Pipistrelle, what exactly is your definition of the 'home pilot pool' and be VERY careful when you answer that. This is not just about political correctness, or even offending my sensitivities as a 'foreigner'. So come on, put your money where your mouth is...

Thanks Capt. pprune, I am one of those you have just cited in your example, so Power Lever, I am just a little curious as to what game you play in the TMA when your skipper is not British...