The BA Scope Clause.
 

We have been hearing a lot about scope regarding the subsumption of the RJ Fleet into CitiExpress.
Courses have been cancelled, and from our perspective, we are waiting for the BACC and BA management to agree with our CC and what passes currently for our management when business in the regions can start to make a return on investment.

Frankly, most of us do not believe for a minute that BACC have any interests at heart except for their own pay packet and seniority list.:rolleyes:
We are trusting our CC to come up with a deal which will be fair to all, but it seems that evry time a deal is close, BACC move the goalposts.:mad:
I have the greatest sympathy with any BAR guy who doesn't want to go to LHR, and similarly with any CFE guy who doesn't want to move to the regions. However, on a similar thread about GB, a number of verbose and logically illiterate BA men suggest, at the end of the debate, that it is a case of 'Deal with it'.

This is going to result in a shafting of grand proportions to Brymon and Manx/BRAL, whose only 'crime' has been to be profitable enough to be snapped up by BA. (A bad day for all of us). Now, we are to apparently be grateful for what crumbs may be thrown to us by a BACC which is determined to keep us out of loss leading mainline routes, but the REAL issue is a couple of years ahead. BACC are looking at the next generation of regional aircraft, and are determined to ensure the same unprofitable structure has charge of those.

Well, we shall see. I'm not in management, but it is interesting to note the actions of The Bishop. The only thing keeping BACC afloat at the moment is the management's concern that BA pilots might actually strike. These are the same few rabble rousers who were in favour of the great successful Cathay action. Makes you think doesn't it.

Anyway, a small ballot, and, of course, invitations to comment:

Do you really believe that BACC has the best interests of CitiExpress Pilots at heart??:D

We didn't need a post to like this to make us think twice about the intentions of BA mainline - greedy ba###rds!!!!:mad: :mad:

A little strong in the expressive side of things, but the poll shows what we all know anyway!:(

This is a very interesting poll. However, the fact of the matter is that I am an unhappy mainline pilot (ex-CFE) who is from now until an aggreement is reached going to be operating 5/6 day rotations thru BHX/MAN on the RJ100.

My own personal view is that the BACC have an agenda which is significantly removed from that of either the pilots or management. :confused:

It's about time BACC consulted the members, hardly any of my colleagues are interested in operating this work pattern - even if we take up their offer of secondment to BHX/MAN we cannot go until SCOPE is sorted, so we can't even relocate to appease our families/partners.

I cannot for one moment think why the BACC can demand that the employees of a non-BA company be offered BA plc contracts, surely this upto the individual airlines (GB, BMed, Maersk). And for that matter, the current state of BA isn't the most attractive of airlines to work for (well at Gatwick at least).

We can only hope for a quick and amicable solution so that lives are not disrupted any more than they have to be. Pilots in LGW want to stay in LGW, pilots from the regions probably want to stay in the regions - so BALPA try to make everyone move. MAGIC.

Enough said.

F33

A good follow up to the GB pilots topic. Although some of the mainline pilots were implying that any BACX input was irrelevant to that thread they were being disingenuous. The inclusion of GB pilots onto the MAINLINE seniority list has everything to do with our own position regarding scope which is becoming a bigger stitch up all the while.

It is a foregone conclusion that the BA CC is just after protecting it's pilots own position. I would also question what BALPA as an organisation are going to do. Our BACX CC is fighting our corner as hard as they can, but I don't see what BALPA as an organisation would do to help us should it come to pass that BACX pilots are significantly disadvantaged by the scope agreement. After all we are a much smaller body of pilots than BA BALPA, paid less, and therefore would represent less of a financial loss if we were to award ourselves a 1% payrise. It must be very frustrating for our CC.

The BAR pilots who will be coming on secondment will be laughing all the way to the bank. If the figure of £1000 per month is true then that represents 20% over and above a jet captain's salary in BACX. As an aside it would be interesting to see if the routes are initially profitable while being operated by the CFE / BAR pilots on the BACX costbase.

Its very sad the way BACC are behaving. They are dividing their Company, causing huge antipathy to their Airline within BACE,(and 650 pilots is quite a lot!) and guaranteeing that as and when more routes and types inevitably come our way in BACE, there will be zero sympathy for their position, and certainly no assistance from us.

They see no-one's point of view, (IT, Engineering, Admin, Finance, Marketing, Commercial, HR, etc) but their own, and somehow think they can operate with impunity and do whatever, whenever to whoever they like.
A collection of Captain Canutes!
They should pay more attention to the likes of Flap33, and less trying to maintain/reinstate a world that has already moved on.

The only bright spot is that as far as even the neddies and nerds fro Waterside are concerned, CitiExpress IS the future of regional and probably eventually shorthaul within BA. :p

Why not email people in the BACC and ask them what they are doing and why? A few facts may help clear the usual rumours / confusion.

This council seems to be a marked improvement on previous ones and much more representative of the whole pilot workforce.

Remember that BA mainline has changed enormously in recent times. Approx. one third of them are now on the post 96 'B' scale and earning a lot less than you might think.

Pickled

I really find the attitude of you citiexpress pilots quite nauseous. You seem to almost revel in the fact that you are cheap. Surely you should be trying to increase your pay levels to the highest level you can?
The fact is that pilot pay has never been the deciding factor in whether a route or airline is profitable. Just look at what Easyjet and RyanAir are paying. Your costs pale into insignificance when you look at the leasing charges and nav/route charges not to mention fuel. So stop harping on about your cheap pay taking over the regions. You do all pilots a big disservice.
And yes I have got an axe to grind. Today I did my last 737 flight in the regions. I am being forced out because you are taking my job and the opportunities of many of my more junior colleagues. These are our routes our slots and we have worked damn hard to make them grow.
Yes scope is very important to us in BA because we do not want pilots like yourselves trying to steal more of our work by offering your services on the cheap. The only service you offer is a disservice to yourselves and you should be ashamed!!!
As for my BAR colleagues who have chosen to stay I wish them alot of luck if they are going to have to sit along guys like you with these sort of attitudes. Intersting CRM ahead!!!

NOT SO HAPPY BOY:(

gentlemen and ladies,

you should consider SCOPE as as two way street-it will definately have advantages for those of you in BACE-you need to open your minds to the possibilities.It might help to think long term on this one.
Frankly,this thread ammounts to nothing more than scaremongering.
jumbo

Copied from my Post in another Thread;

Wow, I havent visited the RP thread for a while, mainly since the New In-house Forums provide a Platform free of wind-up merchants and managers attempting divide and rule tactics(no surely not). It is funny how this division has conveniently reared it's ugly head at a time when BALPA are getting increasingly militant and finally getting their act together with regard BA Pay Negotiations, coincedence ?

How pathetic to boast that you can do a job an get paid less for it, are you serious ? Hell I could work for free but I wouldn't want to and I certainly would hold it as an aspiration.

Scope is not about just protecting BA jobs. The future of every Pilot world-wide is under thraeat. A long-term solution stable solution is not ever going to be acheived if we start underbidding each other for jobs. There will always be someone junior/less experieneced willing to do it for less, including future autopilots. It doesn't mean it's safe however and Airline Management in their efforts to preserve their own expensive and non-productive jobs will push things down to the lowest common denominator. They would replace us all with monkeys if they thought they could get away with it.

For those who benefit this time, beware because if the line breaks down now, your turn will be next. They will either force you to take even less pay/work harder or they will find someone else in the world who will. Do not laugh at the struggles of BA Pilots just because they have been the first to feel these Global Tremours over the last decade and certainly don't wish that they fail at securing a Scope deal because that will leave you all WIDE OPEN in the future. BALPA are fighting the corner the best they can by focussing on the areas where they have the most resources to do so. If the center of the front falls what happens to the weaker flanks ???

BA's strife has had little to do with the current Pilot workforce(over 1/3rd of which on B-Scales, and the other 2/3rds earning the same in BA after decades of loyalty, as low-cost Pilot's after just a couple of years). The agressive response some here receive from implying otherwise is out of frustration that this Reality BA Pilots have had to endure being first in the firing line. Do not believe this is a BA Company Problem, all Airline's management will not stop their attack on Pilots T&C's at the collapse of BA pilots. Try to look from beyond your current uniform Colour and try to see that BA Pilots are the first to raise a stink not because we are all Inefficient Spoilt Crybabies but because we have been under threat from these issues for much longer, the very same issues that will soon work against all Pilots if we don't unite now.

We all have more in Common as Professional Flying Comrades than with any management structure no matter how caring or efficient they may be compared to BA's. BA Pilots are no less Professional or Inefficient than any other outfit's Pilots but are bearing the full force of taking off OVERWEIGHT down the back for years. Don't let them divide us Pilots. who really are the only ones who fully understand the job we do.

This is not a "BA ISOLATED PROBLEM" caused by "EXPENSIVE INEFFICIENT" Pilots(just ask any recent BA DEP's you might know personally if their Pre-conceived Pre-joining Nirvana-image about being an Overpaid Underworked BA Pilots match the Reality once in) but we are first to be attacked. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it sooner than you had wished and miss the days when BA Pilots were around to take all the FLAK !!!!!!

JUMBODRIVER - !!
 

Jumbodriver - clearly you are not in the loop with ref the scope clause as proposed by your own Company Council if you think even vaguely that it is a 'two way street'. If it were indeed that, I think we would be supporting you to the hilt. It is a rip off document, as usual, designed to ensure that BA mainline guys can come to us to work after they retire (thus pinching our junior guys career opportunities), it will not allow any but our 146 Guys into even a potential mainline job, but it enshrines the 'right' of BAR guys to come and sit next to us, but being paid a lot more.

Two way street - yeah, sure.

Happy boy - well, thats one BA pilot I won't need to get to know anyway! Bear in mind no-one is taking your job, it has just moved. Remember that famous BA guy turned politician "Get on your bike, and go to where the jobs are!" or something like that. If you want to come and work with us on the same terms, we'd be delighted to meet you. Otherwise, you can take your platinum rings, and spin on them!;)

Interesting to see what some of you think. I can only talk about BHX because I do not know enough about MAN

BAR BHX actually has made reasonable profits in the past and the current flight crew agreement has led to us probably being the most effecient and flexible pilots in BA. It is a real pitty that the success of the BHX operation has been blown apart for whatever reason you feel like beliving.

It is not a decision at pilot level that has effectively ended the current setup for us in the regions and we are all very very unhappy about it. I do not belive anyone from any company should hold a grudge for individuals, indeed fellow professionals, that have decided to stay. I would guess that most that have decided to stay will have accepted a reduction from the current "lifestyle" because they are motivated more about staying in the midlands for various, mainly family, reasons than chase the so called goodies that may be generated after a long commute down to London.

As for moaners and groaners. Someone will always have a better hand than you, but remember someone will always have less. Do we want to reduce everyone to the lowest level in order to "be fair" or should we try and improve our bit. In our instance I belive we should congratulate both management and Balpa for delivering a practical solution to the problem whist most other areas are still slogging it out.

As I have always maintained on these forums and in discussion, the overall mission from our individual BALPA representatives should be to move towards improving everyones pay, terms and conditions. If your companies reps haven't achieved what you feel is fair then its up to you to do something about it within the framework of your organisation, rather than look at others with green eyed envy.

Totally agree with all of that except for the:

'management and BALPA for delivering a practical solution' bit.

Even management have in fact tried to deal with a solution, but have been rebuffed time and again by Rob Hall and his cohorts.
A solution like this usually means BOHICA.

(BEND OVER, HERE IT COMES AGAIN! This is a tool (sic) well known by BACC!)

Little Prince - a shame to see your back spouting your usual brand of uninformed rubbish. Please explain how a scope deal allows BA pilots to fly for you after retiring. At 55 our pilots are gone, out of BA, no more, contract ended, pension paid. They are no longer BA pilots, so they don't remain on the BA seniority list and they have no right of transfer to any flying job anywhere. If you're aggrieved about your company hiring BA retirees then take it up with your management, it's got nothing to do with BA pilots or BALPA.

As for the 'right'of BAR guys to come and sit next to you, well who gave you a 'right' to suddenly inherit 10 mainline RJs, or a variety of BAR routes? You don't have a 'right' to them, they've just been gifted to you by BA management. Thats right, by BA management, not your management. The condition of the deal is that people who want to stay in the regions can do so without losing income. If you don't like the deal that gives you RJs that you wouldn't otherwise have had then don't fly them. Not a tough choice, is it? Why should you begrudge our guys getting paid a reasonable wage, after all most BACE posters on this site seem to believe that they're are better because they're cheaper.

my my, you really should try reading your own literature. Either Rob and Kevin don't talk to you about anything, or you are nearly as good as them at posting misleading claptrap!!!

Don't make us laugh, you can see from the poll just how many people believe you!

:D :) :D :)

I haven't bothered to view the poll results because their isn't an option to vote for:

Are BACE pilots only interested in lining their own pockets with RJ flying at the expense of the regional jobs of BA pilots.

I hope the poll reflects the opinion that the BACC are protecting the interests of the BA pilots, because thats why I voted for them. If they were looking after you at the expense of my position I'd vote them out.

Just want to clarify "Balpa and management achieving a practical solution."

I am refering to achieving an arrangement that allows some of us to stay at BHX or MAN.

I am not reffering to the decision to effectively close the base's. Considering that BAR pilots delivered a 10% overall improvement in effciency a few years ago on the basis that mainline flying in the regions would be secured it is a very very sore point whats happened; and a reminder to everyone in every company that nothing is safe.

"If you work and do your best you'll get stitched up like all the rest!!!!!"

So before having a bash at BA pilots staying in the regions just view the big picture and remember that there are a lot of very unhappy pilots leaving for LHR.

Airrage makes a very good point. For those that still do not understand just consider; If Beckham, owen etc had their pay cut to £10000 per week, and had to play 100 matches per year, how do you think things would change for those in the other divisions?????????????

Wow, the ability of BA pilots to shoot themselves in the feet should never be underestimated.
Let me get this right, now you are comparing yourselves to the most over-rated, over-paid, precious, petulant people in their particular 'industry'. People who, when it comes down to it, ultimately cannot deliver the goods for which they are paid, and who their manager himself admits are suffering from underperformance brought on by over-remuneration. This over -remuneration is also the prime cause of most of their industry heading for severe financial problems this very year, (although one must, again with an eerie clarity, admit this is down to a foolish management decision!).

I DO fancy your wife though, best legs in the business!

Seriously chaps, we shouldn't fall out. I sympathise most enormously with anyone who has to move because of yet another management 'bright idea'. But even here, we know what the removals package is with mainline. Our blokes in Abz, Bhs, Sou, Brs, Cdf etc are not getting anything like that from THEIR enforced moves, so you can understand why some of us don't actually feel the playing field is level. Coupled with that, we have one of your chaps from management by the initials TDLF who is trying to screw our Ts and Cs even further down, while telling us he is doing us a favour and IMPROVING things. Some of us have worked for the real giant bas###ds of the Industry, but we've never come across this sort of thing before. From our perspective then, we are being hammered both by BA management and BACC. Kind of makes a chap paranoid. And for the record, someone earlier referred to YOUR management, and OUR management. De facto as well as De Iure, your management (unfortunately) IS our management. It makes me sick to think management are better than pilots at anything, but at least they have a kind of loyalty to each other.

The way to avoid being stitched up is to try and act in concert. We KNOW this is not what BACC is trying to do, because they are telling our CC one thing, but discussing a quite different agenda with Mainline.:confused:

And for Mr Solo, I think my colleague was referring to the well known agenda to allow mainline retirees to join BACEX as Captains at age 55 should they wish to. So you see, we are getting it at both ends at once. Cadets in the bottom, and mainline skippers in the top. BACC have another agenda alright, and it is no-one's interest but their own.

Can someone from one of the non-BA outfits explain why the *BRITISH AIRWAYS* Company Council should be fighting your corner? They fight for BA pilots - you've got you're own CCs to fight for you.
They're not the 'Anyone Who Flys in BA Colours' Company Council.

Regrettably, almost true. They are in fact the:

"Screw anyone who isn't Mainline" Company Council.:(

I applaud their fighting for BA pilots, even if their actions are reminiscent of A. Scargill.
Where I fall out with them, and have serious reservations about the whole BALPA setup' is their capability, and indeed, announced intention, to ride roughshod over whoever it takes to get what they want. Bring their own Company down - fine, if that's what they want, but trying to disadvantage US - well let's just wait and see what happens next. :mad: :mad:

I think you have said it all! This is exactly the impression we got from the GB thread! :p

Girls,

Neither of you have answered my question. Why should the BACC fight your corner? You can boo-hoo all you want, but the BACC represents 3000+ pilots. (With the backing of those 3000+). Why should we defer to the needs of employees of a different company?

Make that with the backing of 2999+.

CPB

I think everyone should be forced to work for BA. I have too. Don't see why the Brymon and Bral guys and gals shouldn't get to suffer too! Don't believe the hype, its pants at BA!

Harry

As a displaced BACX pilot due to FSAS, if this RJ100 program falls through, our "managers" don't know what will happen to the 46 of us-reading between the lines that says to me you'll probably be made redundant despite seniority but I'm too scared to tell you at the moment!

What happens to the BA pilots?

STATUTORY REDUNDANCIES AT MANCHESTER
 

Excuse my interruption of this topic but having read through the various threads one thing which strikes me is that we are all in the same boat.I am an engineer based up north and following the closure and none sale of our hangar, 72 engineers found themselves at home on 'Gardening' leave i.e. paid to stay at home.We have been divided from our colleagues and treated despicably by the management teams to the point that many have given up trying to be re-instated and have gotten out of the airline buisness altogether or have jumped to other companies if they could.There are very few jobs at present, only contracting it appears.There are now around 30 'gardeners' left.THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN GIVEN WRITTEN NOTICE THEY WILL BE MADE REDUNDANT AT THE GOVERNMENT STATUTORY MINIMUM FROM THE 30TH SEPT UNLESS THEY ACCEPT MOVING FAMILY AND HOME TO LHR(UNREASONABLE) OR ACCEPT A VERY LOW VOLUNTARY SEVERANCE SETTLEMENT! I have read that there are around 900 cabin and flight crew on said 'gardening' leave down south.If the airline succeeds up here,YOU ARE NEXT!!!A ballot is currently in process for industrial action against this action.PLEASE SUPPORT US AS IT WILL AFFECT YOU SOON.........Thank you for your time......STATUTORY REDUNDANCIES AT MANCHESTER

I'd just like to remind some of the mainline pilots of a small fact that has been posted on the GB thread. The routes you claim as yours actually aren't owned by you, BA pilots esq, personally. They belong to the company and its shareholders. It is therefore down to the company and its shareholders to decide.

I agree with you that it is wrong for a BACX pilot to crow about being paid less than you. FACT - we are being paid less because (as has been stated before) most of us are where we want to be, GLA, EDI, IOM, INV, LBA, etc.

You carp on about scope and what's yours is yours, but should scope come down to seats on an aircraft we have 5 146's that we flew before, on BA franchise routes. Do you intend to displace these pilots? You also harp on about avaricious BACX pilots slavering to get on your RJ's, who incidentally were being flown previously by ex CFE pilots, ahem. I personally haven't bid to move to MAN or BHX to fly them, see the paragraph above.

I don't think that you have any intention of trying to raise our terms and conditions by your actions. Your actions prevent the movement of routes to BACX with its reduced costbase. With your job goes the dead-hand of waterside and its financial burden. Most of the BACX routes won't have such an overhead which will be a significant driver in making them profitable, possibly. So by restricting that move you'll be kicking your employer doubly.

Oh well. Nothing seems to change.

But theres been no shortage of bidders for BHX/MAN, displacing those pilots who were willing to accept inferior pay and terms in order to continue working where they want to be.

Incidentally, as BACX is so low cost, can you tell me how much it costs to hire a 146 from Titan at short notice, because they seem to be underpinning quite a bit of your operation from BHX/MAN at the moment.

BA SCOPE CLAUSES
 

Little Prince you are 100% correct.

BA mainline has for far too long lost money on domestic and regional operations.

Loosing money is not an option in this world anymore, and it is the management of BA in Waterside who have made these moves inorder to try and stop relentless loss making operations.

I don't envy any of you guys flying for mainline, god bless all and I wish you the very best of success, but the fact is there are many routes on which you can not operate profitably, hence the role of BACE to still provide lucrative interline traffic yet take the burden of loss making services from you.

If you continue to lose money hand over fist you will all go out of business, USair has had the highest staff costs of any airline in the US and today has filed chapter 11.

BACE is the future of regional flying in the UK.:)

With illiterate losers on the loose, it will be the profession in general that loses.
:rolleyes:

snooky, I don't think this is supposed to be a spelling kompetishun.

Pilots aren't actually employed on their ability to spell!

To help the slightly less than perfect spellers..

LOOSE rhymes with MOOSE

LOSE rhymes with BOOZE (Quite apt really?)

Now back to the thread.

Here we go again.........
 

The argument is actually simple, BA as ever are trying to muddy the waters, and convince us they have our best interests at heart too....(pause for hysterical laughter) or, more honestly, asking us why the BACC should do anything at all for us. At least the latter approach is selfishly honest.

We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? I don't think I even need to answer that.

Change is inevitable. What s truly saddening is the inability of BA to actually UNDERSTAND why some people really don't want their system. We are not trying to change your own system, but we would quite like to keep our own, thank you. Scope has not benefited a single Regional Pilot in the USA, but it has certainly protected a lot of jobs on larger a/c - well, up to the current Chapter 11 new entrants anyway. But of course, it makes perfect sense in these dark days to insist on 737s and Airbuses flying around with pax numbers which would make a healthy profit on an Emb/146, but which are driving the operators out of business.

Butr anyway - a small wager. One year from now, there WILL be an RJ Fleet staffed by BACX pilots in a ration of around 2 - 1 to ex BA. In three years there WILL be BACX operated 737s and Airbuses in tandem with GB. In four years, all mainline recruitment will first pass through BACX, and in five years, we will all be part of mainline, on mainline Ts and Cs, and the Company will again be haemorraging money. At which point......they will probably buy Highland Airways, Loganair and Eastern, and away we all go again.

Kinda funny really, but I'm not laughing as BA take the first faltering steps to destroying my livelihood.:rolleyes:

You guys make me seriously consider looking for a new Profession.

BA have historically had the best working T&C's, Pensions and Pay in the UK for Pilots. Every 3-5years in BA, over the past 20years or so, those T&C's have been eroded step by step.

Also historically, Pilots often worked their way up through the smaller outfits gaining experience until they secured employment with one of the larger outfits(Virgin, BA, BM, etc) thereby enjoying the improved Pay, T&C's and Pensions. Now you are laughing because their T&C's are under threat ? Unless you are content to stay your entire career as a Regional Jet/prop and don't mind them halving your Pay in 5years after they have finished wiping out the top ranks of Pilots Pay then you shouldn't laugh.

BA have 46 unions to negotiate with and having been a Privatised company still bears a lot of the burden of being a Public company. A lot of the other unions apart from BALPA have been very successful in maintaining unbelievable working conditions which harm their profitability. BALPA being a more flexible and Reasonable Lot(in the past somewhat 'Cozy' with management) have compromised most of their inefficient working practices over the years and are now virtually the most efficient LH operators in the world(stats not BS). This has not stopped BA Pissing these saved efficiencies against the wall elsewhere(70 million on tailfins come to mind).

Realise that BA Pilots are no less hard-working than yourselves. Profitability in their company is no less in their control as you have in your outfits, the only difference to the way all Pilots work to the CAA maximums these days, is the colour of our uniforms that we wear to work. Any Pilot has more in common than the pseudo management types who are eager to replace us with technology asap, and listening to the garbage posted here I can understand their point.

Anywhere where Pilots T&C's are under threat is a concern for us ALL !!! If our Profession is allowed to become the equivalent of a bus-driver we will ALL suffer !! There isn't a Pilot anywhere these days that doesn't have a legitimate reason to be dissappointed or annoyed, because we are ALL under attack without exception.

You are all acting like a hungry pack of wolves over the last few crumbs whilst your owners let fresh bread go stale. Wake Up, we are in the same Profession here. Unless you have just a few months to go as a Pilot and are worried about losing your job then realise that if BA/Virgin or any Mainline Career Pilots lose the fight to save the job as a PROFESSION, you might as well go and get a job driving minicabs becasue the pay will come down to about the same.

Everyone is looking so narrow mindily at their own little poxy job that they can't see the forest for the trees. There is a steam Roller headed toward the Pilot Profession People and unless you always wanted to be just like a minicab driver(pay and status) then you better hope that BALPA succeeds in their efforts. It is not just for selfish reasons that they are using the weight of 3500 Pilots & subscriptions (rather than 40-50) to drive home their demands for consistent Pay & Conditions.

No offense intended toward minicab drivers who would understand the situation better than some here.

PS. Amasing how London underground workers are ready to close down ops in support of firefighters strike, yet Pilots can't even support each other.

PSS. Purple un-SAGE-like
You say "We would be expected to believe that the rate for all pilots should ideally be the same. Hmm, some logic, but no realism. Does one expect the Captain of a Fleetwood fishing smack to be paid the same as the man commanding QE2? "

No and BALPA are trying to prevent the Commander of the QE2 being paid the same as a Fleetwood fishing smack. Isn't it nice to think that a Fleetwood fishing smack Capt can aspire to be a QE2 CAPT ? Imagine if they manage to bring the QE2's CAPT's Pay down to that of the Fleetwood fishing smack, what kind of pay would that leave the fishing smack CAPT on(or should I say new minicab driver)

To get back to the thread:

Airrage, I was trying to say in one sentence what you have far more eloquently expressed in many.

Don't you guys devalue what should be a respected profession by trying to drag everyone down in pursuit of your own interests.

Come on Kevin!!!!!
 

Come on Kevin!! :D

Everything you have written actually makes sense. The problem is that you have not answered the question about Scope, and how it is REALLY going to affect us here in BACX.

Sounds to me as though we at BACX are being sacrificed on the altar of your collective ambition.

I have an idea! Why don't BA end the leases on the RJs, and hand them back to BAe. The current BA pilots can all go and fly whatever and wherever they want - in mainline. Then BACX can lease the RJs at a much more competitive rate, and go where and when we want with them. Hey, I could develop this theme into 73s and all sorts of other aircraft, maybe I should suggest it to David Evans, Tim de la Fosse and Rob Hearn - trouble is, being BA themselves, they wouldn't understand the concept of operating profitable services.

Maybe, just maybe, (obviously following a successful interview and checkride) we'd allow mainline pilots to join our operation!:eek:

Scope is about security of employment first(and its immediate secondary effect is on securing reasonable Pay) not just outsourcing to the current cheapest option(not to be inferred at the BACX Pilots themselves).

If BA succeed in hiring the lowest cost operators at will for their operations, eventually their choice of operators will spill over to include other country Operators as well. So 10years down the road when Pay Negotiations are due, BA will say;
" sorry mate, we just had an offer from Ukraine-express(then part of EEC) who will do it for half that and put their Pilots up overnight in the UK at the bedsit they own, Yes I know a one-bdrm flat in the UK is 500,000 pounds so what, you should have agreed to SCOPE when you were at BACX !!!'

Without Scope we are wide open and any Pay Negotiations will not be worth the paper written on. Yes you can have a 20% Pay Rise but we will start outsourcing 80% of your jobs and your headcount will continue to fall off a cliff.

I think you get the picture.

Everyone is worried that Scope will cost them their job now, when in reality it will protect their jobs for years to come, despite unpleasantness now.

You mean it will protect YOUR jobs, not ours.
:mad:
I have heard that ex-CFE F.O.s are going to get commands ahead of our Captains, and that so-called BA seniority will be used to make sure that the most junior mainline person gets ahead of our most senior BACEx guy. I have heard that mainline is trying to pull a fast one on getting preferential treatment on roster bidding, on leave, days off - the whole nine yards.
:mad: :mad:

In the meantime, scope as expressed by a BAR guy I met here at Manchester yesterday will mean no progression onto the 146/RJ, (including even our own aircraft!!!!!:mad: ) for non type-rated BACX people until all of BA mainline have had a go on their superior Ts and Cs. On top of that, he said that CFE as was is rapidly promoting the Effoh contingent to maximise their chance at a command, because otherwise they too would be subject to the 'normal' BA progression if they left their current type and type freeze.:mad:

It is a complete stitchup, and I just hope our CC have seen it coming; heck, I'd even support our clueless management in their search for lower cost operations. Its all very well to talk about safeguarding future jobs, but call me shortsighted, the job, career and opportunity I'm most interested in protecting is the one which pays my mortgage!!!:mad:

As Einstein said, "The only things which are really infinite are the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not sure about the universe!":rolleyes:


By the way, who is "Kevin"?

This thread is progressing quite nicely. It seems clear that the vast majority of readers believe BA pilots are (again) out for no-one but their greedy selves, and devil take the hindmost. They clearly don't care who they tread on in their quest for preserving and enhancing their pay package.
It's bad enough having to put up with management shouting BOHICA, and not even greasing the baseball bat, but when your own colleagues try to shaft you - well, it's just plain tragic! And then they have the gall to pretend to be surprised when we protest.
:(

I do like the Einstein quotation though. Maybe if he had known BACC and their selfish greed, he might have added platinum ringed cupidity to his little list!:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Personally, I might be prepared to accept a scope clause if the following conditions were met :-

1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.).
2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains).
3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline.

If on the other hand, mainline CC want to impose a scope clause while at the same time selectively restricting access to their seniority list and ensuring that our most senior captain becomes junior to a direct entry cadet who joined yesterday, then they can stick their scope clause where the sun doesn't shine, which would at least have the beneficial effect of muffling those of our mainline colleagues who use this orifice to speak out of!


We are the BRAL collective ~ Resistance was futile, I have been assimilated!

You guys are forgetting one thing, YOU WERE TAKEN OVER. BA paid good money to your employers(£78m in fact, more than an 80% Premium to your share Price at the time of the announcement) not just for assets but accrued Goodwill - Economic FACT !!!

So Yes Dash Trash your most Senior CAPT now becomes Junior to the most Junior BA Pilot, just like as if he had joined from the RAF or Britannia. If you don't like it, go complain to your former owners who sold out ! Why should 3300 BA Pilots accept previous time in an other company for Seniority in BA - get Real ! If I joined BRAL(when it still existed) as a retired BA Pilot, would you have given me seniority based on 30years in BA......NO and rightly so.

As for your other points raised in order to accept a scope clause:

"1. Inclusion on mainline seniority list based on DOJ of original company (Brymon BRAL etc.). "
Covered Above. BRAL was TAKEN OVER/BOUGHT OUT, not merged as equals(or even David and Goliath style). It could be argued that BA Pilots wouldn't have even had to allowed you to maintain your Commands if we had wanted to be bullies, as everyone here seems to suggest we are. Imagine if we were as bad as suggested where you might be......unemployed with FSS ??? Have you ever considered that ?

"2. Inclusion on mainline list open to all BACX pilots irrespective of aircraft type and rank. (i.e. not just jet/146 captains). "
Then give up your retirement of 60/65 and sign a BA contract ? Why should other BA Pilots accept Pilots with different contracts/retirement ages on any BA aircraft when a lot of guys there presently are forced out against their will at 55, but BRAL guys can stay on ? Again if BA had been a bully they would have forced BRAL guys to sign new contracts and everyone over 55 dismissed. But BA Pilots are the bad guys here.

"3. No interview or flight test to access suitability. If you're good enough to fly for BACX, you're good enough to fly for mainline. "
Agreed, but I don't run the BA insurance dept where legalities may require it. BA Pilots aren't demanding this requirement.

There are two sides to ever coin guys, just ask the Senior BA CAPT's now being pushed out of the Regions to be replaced by your Junior CAPT's(junior in BA cause of takeover) how happy they are to have BRAL in BA. Then ask the 50-100 guys not getting their 757 Commands at LHR this year because of regional Capts junior to them are being directed onto the fleet how they feel about it. All this talk of BA Pilots looking after their jobs is far from reality, in fact the opposite is happening. You guys became part of BA(like it or not)when your owners sold BRAL to BA. No one can deny that there are probably more advantages to most ex-BRAL guys being in BA than being out, unless you thought maybe BRAL was going to buy over 250jets some of which are 747's and 777's and fly to most places in the world.

If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts, we would have demanded;
- All BRAL Pilots sign BA Pilot contracts(mandatory age 55 retirement). Those over 55 become redundant immediately.
- that all FS&S job losses be from the bottom of the BA Seniority list(not having Senior 747 Classic Pilots without work for 1-2years on half pay, etc)
- all Regional jobs were filled in order of Seniority and bidding, instead of the present situation of BA Pilots losing their jobs to BRAL Pilots after haven taken reduced Pay for years to fund a New Aircraft that never came. Surplus BRAL Pilots(including CAPTs) are fed into the regular bidding Pool.(junior co-pilots)

So quite bleating about how unfair you are being treated, there are now 3500 people's opinions to consider and you guys are starting to make a lot of people feel sick with your unrealistic moaning. And before you start posting about how unreasonable I am being, remember the above is not what I said should have happened, but what might have happened "If we had been the spoilt Neadrathals in BA as intimated in some of your posts." Instead BRAL and ex-CFE Pilots concerns have often taken the forefront before "our Own existing Pilots" and I think have been dealt with a lot of consideration without a legal obligation to have done so.

So welcome to Big Airways !

PS. Any reason why you guys aren't posting these matters on the more Private Official BA-BALPA Forum, or perhaps after all this bleating about BALPA mistreating you guys, you aren't even members.