BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB
 

This happened at Dublin on the 24th of Dec. There have allegedly been reports filed and the rest. Some are calling the pilot arrogant and selfish and others saying the lady was cranky. Judge for yourself :E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWg7IpphPc8

Regards,

Without hearing what came before; an understanding the circumstances around clearance to line up, it's hard to judge fairly.

When she asked them to vacate the runway three times why didn't they?

If that's what going on with the radio, would be interested to know what's going on in the cockpit.

You can't tell ATC you're ready when you're not and then line up without the cabin seated, that's unprofessional. If you tell ATC you'll be 2 minutes and if there's nothing in finals they might let you line up. This whole idea that once you're there lined up the whole world can wait for you is BS. Pretty obvious BA were in the wrong and doing everything they could to not be delayed themselves while delaying everyone else.

What's with the "fully ready" rubbish? What's next? Completely fully and definitely ready.

At Sydney, Nigel were getting to the holding point and not being ready and delaying other aircraft (up to 20 mins) - "just waiting for the load sheet". Eventually this was stopped as BA are now "fully" aware that they can't proceed to the holding point until they are ready.

He was also asked twice by the previous (ground) controller if he was ready very explicitly as the BA form of 'not having our numbers' is well known.
I don't think he would try this carry on in LHR, ORD or JFK.

Deadcut,

What's the matter with "fully ready"? Like "fully established". Everybody knows you might otherwise be partially established on an ILS and that ATC may not be aware of the difference :\

Well someone's headed for his 15 minutes of fame.

The lady ATC officer was far from cranky. Rupert's (or Nigel's?) arrogance shines through.

How can you be partially established on the ILS? You are either established or you are not.

Found this on another website:

Ignoring an ATC instruction. Standards issue. Bad reflection on BA

Give the bloke a break. Everyone knows Slightly Ready is what he meant.:rolleyes:

Sorry, but the controller is in the wrong. She kept interrupting him while he was carrying out his last minute checks. Good ATC understands that you are not just sitting there talking on the radio. Talking on the radio is only a small portion of our job.

And we are not psychic about what goes on in the cabin. If the cabin is almost always ready in 5 minutes, but on said day something goes wrong, we can't be expected to magically figure this out with no input from the back. Maybe some passenger got up just as the cabin got ready to call ready to the cockpit.

The speed bird pilot to me seemed quite calm and collected. Controller should understand that interrupting a checklist in most airlines requires that checklist to be read again from the beginning. Pretty standard procedures in most airlines to prevent missed items.

And asking pilot's to hurry should be internationally abolished. It has no place in aviation, everyone should assume that everyone is doing their best. We all are busy doing things behind the scenes. Silence on the frequency does not equate to inactivity off of it.

7700 you must be kidding, there's no way he was ready and he was clearly stalling for more time.

Good ATC understands that when you say fully ready you are in fact ready, not I'm fully ready except for a couple of things that aren't, such as waiting to hear from the cabin crew and waiting to do a checklist.

Exactly SMOC......he had no place just sitting there.....told to vacate the active, should have done just that. End of.

And when asked to "stand-by" perhaps the controller should have done just that, "End of".......

(FWIW we don't know what was going on in the Flight Deck and/or the Cabin, and funnily enough neither did the controller).

Wiggy what part of are you ready aren't you clear about?

Ready = take off
Not ready = get out of the way

But I don't want to get out of the way so I'll call standby :ugh:

Let me think.... Yep, got it thanks, I'm so glad I got this far in my aviation life without realising what that call meant - thanks for pointing out the gap in my knowledge.

You're perfect of course, but some of us have encountered situations when you were ready, called it, been lined up and then for unknown reasons you're suddenly not ready (cabin, EICAS, etc)...and if any critical thinking is involved ( along the lines of is it even safe to taxi?)perhaps you just need ATC to stand by for a few seconds.

I don't know what went on on this flight, I suspect neither do you...

Pilot definitely in the wrong, and lying as well.

Saying he is fully ready every time asked, and when he thinks ATC is going to clear him for takeoff, he changes his story and says "still doing checks", or "got a phone call" etc each time "not ready".

My thoughts are that if the cabin crew have not informed you that the cabin is ready for departure, or if you haven't finished your checks, then you simply are not ready! I don't see why you should have an advantage over another airline!

The last company I flew for it was written in the Ops Manual that you were not permitted to accept a line up clearance unless you had secure from the cabin and were ready.

I know that holding point well as we often flew out of Dublin. On one occasion as we lined up we had a call from the cabin that there was a problem having previously been given secure. A quick call to ATC who asked to vacate which we did with no issue for landing traffic. As soon as we vacated called by cabin to say issue resolved advised ATC who promptly slotted us into beginning of queue and we got away. This is what could have happened on this occasion.

Whilst we need to hear the crews side of the story it seems to be poor management of the situation.

That video has been edited and seems to be missing some pertinant parts of the conversation. It also doesn't make clear where Nigel is at the time (not on the Runway) and, as far as I know, is false in saying that other aircraft went around.

The controller had a runway to control. The pilots should have been more co-operative, whatever was 'going on in the cockpit'. 'End of'.

How would that Nigel have squealed if he had been an aircraft having to go around due to the self-importance of some git lining up when he is not ready and then arguing with ATC about it?!! This all really just comes down to good manners. Nigel was lacking. (What's "taking a phone call" all about at that stage???!!)

When instructed to vacate an active runway by ATC, you do so without hesitation, you do NOT start a debate about it..........BA take note!!!

So many of you guys seem to be totally Pavlovian when to comes to ATC. The buck stops on board, not with ATC. They can invite me to "line up", "take-off" or even "vacate" but I'm not doing any of the above until I'm sure it's safe to do so and I will not get involved in a debate with ATC if I'm handling something critical unless such debate is helpful to me. If that's arrogant so be it. There are umpteen reasons why you may genuinely be unable to either vacate or depart (I have no idea what the case was here)........perhaps the BA pilot should have used the magic word "unable" :hmm:

Some in BA have taken note. I understand as a result of all this one sided trial by youtube and other media the pilot involved is being "encouraged" to make sure his full report has been acturately filed, complete with full details of his interaction with ATC ......I wonder if the controller is now having second thoughts about some things that were said.

Nigel was def a plonker and he clearly knew he wasn't ready and used his armoury of tactics to delay things. tut tut.

However, the controller may of been better in her phraseology. 'I've asked' is a bit wishy washy, 'Nigel, you are instructed to vacate runway etc etc' is unambiguous and would take a very brave (and stupid) pilot to ignore such a command.

BA Pilot ATC Incident at DUB
 

The world doesn't revolve around you Wiggy.

There are actually other Airlines and Pilots out there, who believe it or not, need that runway just as much as you.

Go ahead and use some bull$@it excuse "im taking a phone call" or use your 'enable' excuse, but youbetter have a damned good reason for doing so.

it seems to me that there was a breakdown in communication. Clearly the BA wasn't as ready as ATC wanted and, like many places, this contravened the high intensity runway operation procedures (I think Dublin has a line or two in the AIP).

I'm surprised that the BA didn't do what he was told and, to me, that appears to be the most unusual element of this whole event. That said, a significant proportion of the recording reflects badly on ATC with an unprofessional rant.

Other than aircraft safety, who is the boss when it comes to ground movements on the airfield?

Pretty much as Cows Getting Bigger calls it. BA bashing is probably quite an easy sport and if the clip has been edited that raises alarm bells. Clearly the YouTube poster is not impartial.

They should have vacated when instructed, but the ATCO should not have vacillated. The part about taking a phone call is probably a badly worded response when put on the spot, but didn't help.

They should have taken a leaf out of the blue-now-purple brigade and declared a "small technical problem, we just need a moment to investigate". Used to great effect when lined up on the active without being fully ready and with aircraft now barrelling down the ILS, having declared ready for departure.

Come on wiggy, we've all been there, called ready when we were really not fully ready, entering the runway with the fingers crossed, hoping to be absolutely ready once we line up...

Usually we feel quite guilty about this, and when it does not work out, when ATC finds us out and no stalling technique has any chance to work without delaying other aircraft further, we dutily vacate the runway with our tail between our legs!

You can't use the checklist as an excuse to stall even further, unless of course, BA's line up checklist starts with 'cockpit preparation':}

What do you think would have happened if they tried this at Heathrow?

If they wouldn't do it there, why should they do so anywhere else?

.... or Gatwick, or Manchester, or Luton .................

Sorry to interrupt the chip-shouldered predictable BA bashing - just want to point out this whole public trial by heavily-edited-youtube clip was started by a spotter with a scanner who pretends to be an air traffic controller on some virtual flight sim/ATC network.

There is more to this than the recording suggests. Dublin ATC isn't great. With due respect to the Dublin ATCOs, who have to work within the constraints of a runway and taxiway layout that doesn't help them much in its design.

And this wouldn't have happened at Gatwick or Heathrow, for many reasons. ATC procedures built to take into account the needs of the operators (not just ATC) and high density ops taxi-way design (multiple holding points for departure) being two that spring to mind.

Anyway, sorry, back to the spotter led bashing. Fire away chaps.

ATCO here.

Can't understand why anyone is defending the BA pilot here, unless there had been some backstory that isn't on the youtube recording that subsequently influenced the exchange we heard.

The pilot should not have taken a line up if not ready. As ATC we couldn't care less whether you're not ready because of the cabin, final figures or whatever. As far as we're concerned, you can either takeoff when we ask or you're not. If you're not ready then tell us. Personally I will give you a little leeway but if you're starting to delay aircraft behind you by more than a couple of mins I'll do what the DUB ATCO tried to do and move you away from number 1 at the holding point.

And did I imagine it, but did I read somewhere that the aircraft then lined up and then caused 2 go-arounds by his delaying tactics?

Bit more right rudder, please do explain what else justifies you telling ATC that you are ready when you are clearly not and subsequently stalling and ignoring direct ATC instructions.

I am very curious, since you seem to have an opinion that supports this pilot.

Not my experience - I have always found them excellent especially given single runway ops and traffic density at times.

Nigel was totally in the wrong.

Either he was ready when he said he was, or he wasn't. If he wasn't then he lied and deserves a rocket. If he was and something suddenly changed he should have declared it. He didn't.

I think we all know what was happening here and it reflects very poorly on BA. I hope they carry out an internal investigation and that the crew have their attitudes suitably adjusted.