Had it recently with another BA in Nice who was blocking the runway ahead of me, by liningup in slow-Mo. Slower then parking on stand. Didn't trad Back t/o clearance 3 times, then was blaming a technical problem, which can happen. After which another minute of conpleting checks followed.
This seems to happen regularly with BA as I have heard And experienced behind them!
Maybe its cultural, where their acars loadsheets make it seem "normal" to not be ready while blocking a runway or holdingpoint.

Do BA incorporate single engine taxying? Maybe it wasn't the cabin, maybe it was a late starting of the second engine. Easy to know on a turboprop but almost impossible to detect on jet. When my company started single engine taxi procedures we were pressured all the time by atc at a London airport to get it started. When it was pointed out to them that virtually every aircraft taxying to the hold are on one engine, including the orange brigade etc, their response was "oh are they?" They can see the props not rotating, but not the jets. Do the engines on BA's 319/320s need 2 minutes after start for thermal stabalisation?
On a separate note, yes I've pushed back at the same time as an orange airbus only for them to call for taxi with the tug attached to get ahead of us, and also had them parked next to us and they've seen our doors close up and airbridge removed only for them to call for push and start with their airbridge still attached. :mad:

As I said earlier, he was also asked very explicitly TWICE by the previous controller if he was ready and gave ambiguous answers before he was even handed over to tower. This is not on the youtube clip. I was operating on the same frequency at the time.

We may have all fluffed it at little once or twice as might ATC (starting a landing clearance with a wind as an aircraft vacates) but this was a lot more than this.

It wasn't a world stopping event but all thr Nigels on Europe could really do with getting out of the habit of blocking holding points and runways whilst waiting for load data/cabin secure. As a general rule if you see Nigel pushing just before you, have some intersection figures ready.

Posted by Caulfield :As ex ATC I'd say the most sensible post so far. The thread should now be closed.

I couldn't agree more.

At a UK regional airport not known for very efficient ATC if they asked me at the holding point if I was 'ready', and I had 30 seconds to go until the second engine was ready (2 mins after start) I would tell them I was because if I didn't they would instruct me to hold and clear an aircraft at 5 miles to land. Is that wrong when I know that it will take at least 30 seconds to enter the runway and complete the lineup checklist before applying take off thrust?

Where exactly does pregnancy come into it Mr A and C?

That YouTube clip seems like it has been edited to discredit the BA crew. I think you really would need to know where the aircraft actually was when the 'vacate the runway' calls were made. If as I suspect they hadn't actually entered it then all these calls for them to be burnt at the stake for not vacating when instructed fall down a bit. And she did decide to make her point when they were probably doing their lineup checklist which is not ideal. I do think that some here are blowing this out of proportion.

http://www.skybrary.aero/images/thum...px-EIDW_hs.jpg

Assuming I've correctly managed to attach the image, it seems from the chart, IMHO, that E1 begins after the Cat 1 hold and that it is Link 1 up to that point. A and B2, on the other hand, are charted with the taxiway designation before their hold lines. I would therefore think that "checks below the line" would take place after crossing the Cat 1 hold onto E1 as there is no turning back at that point. Unless of course you're ordered to vacate via 16/34 in which case it wouldn't seem that much of a big deal to simply comply with the ATC instruction. You don't wait until you're lined up to go below the line on any plane that I've flown, none of which was an Airbus. Sort of no huge deal but enough cringe factor after hearing the exchange to know it wasn't good. :uhoh:

In my machine the below the line check final item(take off inhibit) comes after take off clearance, not line up clearance.

1. Slow news day yesterday?
2. Here we are xx years and "Nigel" still being used in banter love it
3. Yes more Rupert than Nigel

That's not a fluff, that's a good use of RT time, and an SOP for me.

BTW line up on the runway and then tell me to stand by you had better have a really good reason when in Hi-intensity runway ops. Not that the ATCO covered themselves in glory according to the truncated recording but the BA would not have departed for me and vacated followed by an MOR.

Can someone just explain for me please:

It's 06:08 when Maeve clears BA825 to "line up AND WAIT." prior to that, she's just blathering on about an a/c behind him who may (or may not?) be ready. So until that point, he isn't occupying the runway.

At 07:43 he departs. Would have been earlier except for the numerous lengthy lectures he receives from 'motormouth' WHILST HE IS LINING UP!

Two things occur to me: Firstly that's appalling controlling. Secondly: Even accepting that this is DUB, and very odd things happen there, two go-arounds in such a period is just a lie, isn't it!

I've seen the same thing at Nice, BA ordered off the runway in the end; off we went. I've never seen this from another airline, coincidental or is there strong OTP or other pressure at BA? Another poster has seen the same at Nice. It seems bizarre to call ready for departure when not.

Has anyone considered that a following traffic in the queue might have had an expiring slot?
"Think for yourself!"

4468, you have just made my day. My better half is called Maeve and boy do they intoxicate!! :)

Happens fairly regularly in EDI too. They taxi all the way to A1 or D1 and THEN state that they're 'Waiting for their figures' which blocks the main line-up point for the runway. Nigel, if you're NOT ready tell ATC before you get to the 'loop' so that everyone behind you can pass and depart on schedule. It's not Rocket Science :ugh:

Which is why you play them at their own game at Edi and tell them your able Charlie as soon as they taxi past.

Waiting for figures is not the crews problem they have no choice, it is BA's they need to be told to stop the procedure.(sometimes you expect the cabin secure & it doesn't come say due a pax suddenly standing up, communicating the like takes time) As for ATC hassle, well wonder how the controller would have felt should the birdseed have taken off with say wrong flap set and crashed with loss of life etc. I'm sure the AAIB would have sited the hassle as a factor. Sometimes you just have to "suck it up" and shrug as hassling crew just prior to departure is a recipe for mistakes to be made.:=

In which case surely the failsafe is to obey ATC when you're on the ground rather than responding to perceived pressure from them?

Ice Pack, exactly. The question should be why it takes sometimes in excess of 20 mins to get the final figures. Sitting there anxiously waiting doesn't do a lot for the operating crew either. They should be thinking about where they are right now and in the next little while. Not whether someone at LHR is or isn't doing their job and whether there is anyone they can call or ACARS to find out what is going on... Again.

I have also noticed BA taking a very long time after push-back to get ready for taxi, even blocking a cul-de-sac whilst doing so. Is this part of the "waiting for the numbers" game?

Load sheet by ACARS problem i think

For the posters that think this is a storm in a teacup I disagree. This happens each and every day across the world. At LHR you don't see it as the Speedbirds are parked in "sin bins" awaiting their numbers and wouldn't dare trying it on. Away from base and quite often at smaller single runway airfields then it would appear its game on. The only difference this time is that Dublin airport is part of the live atc network and this has became very public. Hopefully something will come of it and a BA management pilot will issue an edict for the better of all aviators. But it will take a cultural change I feel which is easier said than done.

In the later scenario if the "wheels fell off". How would the CRM be effected by the input of the ATCO during checks. :rolleyes:

It is their choice to deliberately not tell Ground/Tower until they are have gone past the last 'Option' for clearing the taxiway for all the other aircraft in the queue behind them. It's basic 'Airmanship' :=

Not quite. As I suspect you know they are, along with just about any other operators aircraft, held well short of the runway entry points (e.g. Pluto/Lokki/Loman, until ready) and, gasp, it's not unknown for other operators not to be ready when called, especially those coming out of T1/2/3 for the 27s. I'd agree the BA final figures system isn't perfect, far from it, but personally I've not had to decline a clearance to enter either of the 27's due figures or cabin in several years. OTOH there are issues with compression on the T5 to 09R routings, hence if needed ( and coming out of 5B or 5C it's not always needed) we either to sit on Bravo or those coming out of the southern T5 gates may wait on the terminal apron, leaving the access to 09R via Alpha clear.

The idea that BA flights are routinely held in "sin bins" around the airport waiting for figures is somewhat wide of the mark....

What are the reasons in favour of this seemingly inefficient system of getting final load figures halfway down the taxiway, or in this case on the runway?

Is it cost? Why can't BA follow what every other airline I've dealt with do and go with final figures before pushback?

Might improve OTP beyond whatever OTP or cost saving this current ATC hindering ACARS system saves

Just to remind people that seem to think that the clip was edited to BA's disfavour, almost 4 minutes elapsed from the time of his first "standby" to when he was actually ready to take off (04:00 to 07:43). 4 minutes! I can't see any airline getting away with that at LHR, LGW, MAN, etc.

Unfortunately the LiveATC feed at DUB scans three frequencies, so that's the reason why some of this conversation was missed. Listen to the whole unedited clip and you will hear.

Probably someone in the dim & distant past thought it was "cutting edge", seems more like it is "cutting it to the edge". . . . . . . prefer our system of receiving an sms, usually well before the last pax has boarded.

There are little adjustments that need to be made once the actual load and pax split are known and staying on a gate awaiting the final figures will likely cause the odd inbound aircraft to have to wait somewhere for it to be clear as there aren't enough gates in many places and even if there are, they are best used efficiently. So ACARS loadsheets are great but if they need another couple of people in that department to make it run more smoothly, then grab a couple of the do nothing office people, like cabin crew managers, and get them to help speed it up a bit.:E

5 posts & 1st since 2009, were you turned down during selection then ? (poor love :rolleyes: )

I think this accusation could be applied to many pilots in many companies (both "flag carriers" & "others", hell, even some LCC pilots from what I hear on the radio ) however, I believe most BA colleagues, are just as aware as the rest of us, that they are no longer a "protected species", and are subject (via their anal HR Dept) to pretty much the same level of B.S. as the rest of us.


Ask the Capt of the B777 "glider" if you think they retain any misconceptions of their "place" in BA.

Waiting for the numbers, is waiting for the ACARS loadsheet? Why do BA have a large issue here when say EZY for example, do not.

btw, you bet your arse they wouldn't have tried that at home base. They most certainly do ask to be moved out of the way of they're still waiting for the final figures.

Captplaystation, nicely put. And SOE, to use a rowing analogy, I suspect:

http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictur...e_red_crew.jpg

I actually provide one of the two Liveatc feeds for EIDW

Here is the link to my archive of the recording
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ei...2014-1100Z.mp3

I havent listened back to the archive before this event (so dont take this as gospel), but I have read on another forum that the same flight was caught out not ready for push and start after requesting it.

A strange decision this to move to Spotters Corner. Things that make you go hmmmm.

No agenda here, as you can see this thread is many pages long, my few posts are just supplying true links to the information being discussed and I added one other unsubstantiated as of this moment but relevant piece of info.

If we are (as led to believe by an earlier post ) "reassured" by the fact that our Nige was "offered" a DUB ATC number to dial up up on arrival at destination, shouldn't we maybe leave it to two "professionals" to agree (or disagree) on the evenings events, rather than launch into a ( what certainly appears to me as a Scotsman) bit of an Irish/English barely disguised full on racist to-do.

I am trying (as aircrew, but with many friends working in ATC) to stay "professionally " neutral , it is too late at night to even mention the racial stuff( (well, I have already) but, this thread would be best served if the spotters/stirrers took their business elsewhere.

I think most "pilots" on here can probably raise an eyebrow to some of "Nige's" responses, I am equally sure a few controllers are thinking "Oh, why couldn't she have maybe just toned that down a few degrees."

I am at a loss to understand why this sort of cr@p is dragged onto a public forum really. If you go down to the local tax office, or are stopped by the side of the road by the cops, do you record it & splash it all over youtube ? no ? funny that. Many years ago (very many ) as a spotty youth listening to my coveted air band radio, I remember reading some legislation concerning listening/reproducing/transmitting. . . are you sad little people actually legally allowed to record/reproduce ATC/Aircraft transmissions ? & if so, why exactly ? apart from filling youtube with "new-era" gossip what the hell are you doing exactly ? :(

Exactly. And as already said by Caulfield just a storm in a tea cup. I honestly think this thread should now be locked as there's absolutely nothing further of professional interest for anyone to add.

In Ireland, yes they are.

As for "sad" ... while I'm not entirely sure whether you're referring to spotters or those with radios or whatever else but I think that's a bit uncalled for.

OK guys. This is getting out of hand. One or two are taking an enforced break while others with follow if the tone and niggardly aspersions are continually thrown around apparently freely. That, is just not going to happen.


Lower the tone, enjoy a debate, but do not get to the level of bombast and abuse however well it is covered up.


When I see that people get more and more vitriolic I can see that they are getting miffed that that their point of view is not being taken seriously or someone else is bettering their effort.


STOP! Think before you post and all will be well or you may be one of the others that have to take a break from this thread.


Got the idea?