Are home computer flight sims too real?
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
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From: somewhere
Gerund
Are you seriously trying to tell us that you have commited a VERY, VERY serious crime ?
Do you know that if you got caught, then the information posted here could be given in evidence ?
And do you know that the PPRuNe owners can help the police check your I.P address, work through your ISP and track where you live ?
Please remember this is a forum for wannabes, aviators, and aviation enthusiasts. What you are saying is potentially damaging to the security and reputation to the airline market - please bear in mind that apart from the over 62,000 members, there are many more people who like to read these forums only.
What you are saying is quite well publicised - this is not some daft little website you know - but the world's leader for aviation news online.
Are you seriously trying to tell us that you have commited a VERY, VERY serious crime ?
Do you know that if you got caught, then the information posted here could be given in evidence ?
And do you know that the PPRuNe owners can help the police check your I.P address, work through your ISP and track where you live ?
Please remember this is a forum for wannabes, aviators, and aviation enthusiasts. What you are saying is potentially damaging to the security and reputation to the airline market - please bear in mind that apart from the over 62,000 members, there are many more people who like to read these forums only.
What you are saying is quite well publicised - this is not some daft little website you know - but the world's leader for aviation news online.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 153
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From: A very Dark Place
Andrew M, tut, tut, I have a firewall, don't you?
Maximum, I have NEVER been asked to show my licence! Well, that is not quite true; fair cop. I have pulled it out and waved it around, and I suppose the important pages have been glanced at ONCE, but, as I said a computer and decent printer is a wonderful thing.
You reckon at every line and simulator check? Dream on! I suppose it depends on the company!! Let me know yours and I won't apply for training captain!!
Maximum, I have NEVER been asked to show my licence! Well, that is not quite true; fair cop. I have pulled it out and waved it around, and I suppose the important pages have been glanced at ONCE, but, as I said a computer and decent printer is a wonderful thing.
You reckon at every line and simulator check? Dream on! I suppose it depends on the company!! Let me know yours and I won't apply for training captain!!
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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I totally agree Andrew M.
If Gerund now comes back to us and says he was only joking, may I make a pre-emptive strike and state that I have had total sense of humour failure on this one.
If he is joking, then he shows a total lack of respect for his professsion, his colleagues and himself. And a total lack of awareness of how we are misrepresented on many occcasions by the media, and how postings like his serve only to denigrate our profession even further. Shame on him.
well, we appear to be moving way off topic thanks to friend Gerund.
Gerund, it would seem you're admitting to being a liar and a cheat..............that really puts you up there with the best of them.
If Gerund now comes back to us and says he was only joking, may I make a pre-emptive strike and state that I have had total sense of humour failure on this one.
If he is joking, then he shows a total lack of respect for his professsion, his colleagues and himself. And a total lack of awareness of how we are misrepresented on many occcasions by the media, and how postings like his serve only to denigrate our profession even further. Shame on him.
well, we appear to be moving way off topic thanks to friend Gerund.
Gerund, it would seem you're admitting to being a liar and a cheat..............that really puts you up there with the best of them.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 436
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From: N. Europe
"Coming back to the original topic, it speaks for itself that nobody picked up my question on map shift."
Perhaps due to assuming that they would not depend on the onboard avionics for navigation? Accurate navigation is in the hands of everyone today...
/Fred
Perhaps due to assuming that they would not depend on the onboard avionics for navigation? Accurate navigation is in the hands of everyone today...
/Fred
Northern Monkey
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle, England
Although it is against my better judgement to respond to such an obvious troll, I can say, as someone who works in the field of IT security 
that a firewall will not hide the destination ip address of the device, only prevent others from connecting to that device when they know the address.
In the uk, isps keep logs of when people logged on, what ip address they were giving, and the phone number they called from.
Although I cannot comment on what the rules are in different countries, it is posible to find out which isp an ip address origionates from by looking at iana.org
NB
that a firewall will not hide the destination ip address of the device, only prevent others from connecting to that device when they know the address. In the uk, isps keep logs of when people logged on, what ip address they were giving, and the phone number they called from.
Although I cannot comment on what the rules are in different countries, it is posible to find out which isp an ip address origionates from by looking at iana.org
NB
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
From: somewhere
I kinda think that this thread is dying out now.
We have came to a conclusion that no, flight sims cannot be blamed for terrorist attacks, and they cannot be used to learn how to fly a real plane.
Map shifting wouldn't be effective in my opinion, as determined terrorists would get the info from somewhere
Yeah right 
, like anybody becomes a commerical pilot just because there was nothing else to do. In fact, most pilots don't view it as just a job - if that were the case I think most people would be doing a job anywhere else that was easier to get into.
I think the only ATPL you have is the one you get after passing the exam on Microsoft Flight Sim 2002 Professional. Even still, I doubt you could even pass that exam.... 
I really do hope for your own sake you are bullsh1t*ing us.
Has anybody seen the new simulator on sale in Transair ? It's £3,995.00 and comes with rudder pedals and yoke integrated into a small cockpit mock-up with switches. (Pg 54). It's advertised as being an "IFR training and proficiency package". Wonder if it has loading on the controls, like in a real aircraft ???
We have came to a conclusion that no, flight sims cannot be blamed for terrorist attacks, and they cannot be used to learn how to fly a real plane.
Map shifting wouldn't be effective in my opinion, as determined terrorists would get the info from somewhere
Profession? It's just a bloody job for heavens sake
, like anybody becomes a commerical pilot just because there was nothing else to do. In fact, most pilots don't view it as just a job - if that were the case I think most people would be doing a job anywhere else that was easier to get into.
Maximum, I have NEVER been asked to show my licence! Well, that is not quite true; fair cop. I have pulled it out and waved it around, and I suppose the important pages have been glanced at ONCE, but, as I said a computer and decent printer is a wonderful thing.
I really do hope for your own sake you are bullsh1t*ing us.
Has anybody seen the new simulator on sale in Transair ? It's £3,995.00 and comes with rudder pedals and yoke integrated into a small cockpit mock-up with switches. (Pg 54). It's advertised as being an "IFR training and proficiency package". Wonder if it has loading on the controls, like in a real aircraft ???
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
just to clarify, "map shift" refers to a situation where, for a number of possible reasons, the IRS/FMS system has not updated the aircrafts position properly, therefore the aircraft position displayed on the nav display is incorrect. However, it looks correct.
An aircraft programmed with a lat and long to hit a building experiencing a small map shift ( a common occurence) would in fact miss the building. So simply using the FMS and autopilot is not reliable enough.
The fact no-one picked this up kind of demonstrates the difference between the PC simmers knowledge of aircraft systems and the real world.
I say this not to put anyone down but simply to confirm that a knowledge of the aeroplane gained through a PC sim, no matter how seemingly detailed, will be lacking in numerous ways that the PC simmer will not even be aware of.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing......................(mostly to the potential terrorist in the above example.)
An aircraft programmed with a lat and long to hit a building experiencing a small map shift ( a common occurence) would in fact miss the building. So simply using the FMS and autopilot is not reliable enough.
The fact no-one picked this up kind of demonstrates the difference between the PC simmers knowledge of aircraft systems and the real world.
I say this not to put anyone down but simply to confirm that a knowledge of the aeroplane gained through a PC sim, no matter how seemingly detailed, will be lacking in numerous ways that the PC simmer will not even be aware of.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing......................(mostly to the potential terrorist in the above example.)
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
Likes: 0
From: somewhere
Maximum - to whom were you referring to ?
------------
Also, as I said:
However, we have established that the terrorists could use visual navigation to strike again.
In addition, when I say ...
I mean that terrorists could use visual navigation, as mentioned by several other members. Also, they could get the real figures from somewhere - rendering the map shifting in sims useless.
We have already agreed that sims are useless anyway.
------------
Also, as I said:
We have came to a conclusion that no, flight sims cannot be blamed for terrorist attacks, and they cannot be used to learn how to fly a real plane.
In addition, when I say ...
Map shifting wouldn't be effective in my opinion, as determined terrorists ....
We have already agreed that sims are useless anyway.
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 292
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Andrew M, I wasn't refering to you, but to a post made way back on page 1 of the thread.
However, now I am. You have demonstrated my point exactly. You say:
You obviously don't know what a "map shift" is. Please go back and read my previous post.
QED.
By the way, I agree with you re PC sims and need for visual flight to target.
However, now I am. You have demonstrated my point exactly. You say:
Also, they could get the real figures from somewhere - rendering the map shifting in sims useless.
QED.
By the way, I agree with you re PC sims and need for visual flight to target.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 75
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From: SE ASIA
I think we are unduly concerned here, as the sim programmers have already addressed this issue. My PSS 777 has an inbuilt, anti hijacking device that causes it to strike the earth ( or sea ) some 1-2 miles short of the runway while doing a coupled ILS approach.
Maximum, I haven't seen map shift for some time now, since switching to GPS / IRS combinations.
Maximum, I haven't seen map shift for some time now, since switching to GPS / IRS combinations.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 112
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From: nth west-- Australia
My son, 150 hours cessna 172,plus forever playing on the computer had the chance to try out the real simulators.
Completed 7 takeoffs ,circuits and landings without a problem ,and did one in a 747-200 in heavey rain(800 metres vis) using IRS without a hassel.
So answer is Yes.
They are making it harder to get into the cockpit these days,and if someone does ,then the passengers are stuffed whether they can hit a target or not anyway.
The 7 circiuts etc were in a Dash 8------not the cessna lol
Completed 7 takeoffs ,circuits and landings without a problem ,and did one in a 747-200 in heavey rain(800 metres vis) using IRS without a hassel.
So answer is Yes.
They are making it harder to get into the cockpit these days,and if someone does ,then the passengers are stuffed whether they can hit a target or not anyway.
The 7 circiuts etc were in a Dash 8------not the cessna lol
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,598
Likes: 11
From: Down south, USA.
SimFly: an FBI agent was interviewed by a major US network regarding events which contributed to the terrible day. A flight instructor told her about a foreign flight student who was only interested in cruise flight. The instructor knew that this was very strange and called the FBI agent.
When she notified superiors at the FBI, they apparently had no interest in further investigation. The flight instructor seemed to feel terrible about the lost opportunity to prevent a catastrophe.
From what I recall, that flight student was on one of the planes on 9/11.
1) Enter radial/*** or &# into the direct box. 2) Execute. 3) Push ^#@~. 4) Verify modes on ADI/HSI.
When she notified superiors at the FBI, they apparently had no interest in further investigation. The flight instructor seemed to feel terrible about the lost opportunity to prevent a catastrophe.
From what I recall, that flight student was on one of the planes on 9/11.
1) Enter radial/*** or &# into the direct box. 2) Execute. 3) Push ^#@~. 4) Verify modes on ADI/HSI.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 29th May 2003 at 13:20.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 423
Likes: 13
From: Scotland
regarding map shift, think you'll find that the 767 PIC package simulates the IRS navigation system very well, and if I leave it on manual mode for too long, I get the message on the FMC "check position" and the IRS eventually goes into another mode (ATT?)
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 76
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From: CYYZ
Seems like most of the posts here have been based on MSFS. Check http://aerowinx.de/html/simulator.html
The user base of this software ranges from NASA research centres, airlines to universities (http://aerowinx.de/html/ps1pro.html). It might not teach one to fly the real thing, but it sure gives one heck of a lot of information.
Comments?
The user base of this software ranges from NASA research centres, airlines to universities (http://aerowinx.de/html/ps1pro.html). It might not teach one to fly the real thing, but it sure gives one heck of a lot of information.
Comments?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
From: Northern Hemisphere
GERUND...
I agree 100 percent with you post! I too have been flying on this continent for the last 12 years on several different aircraft types. The annual renewals do come "a bit" too often every now and again. There have been a couple years when I have just carried on flying with the old license as leaving the bush to do a renewal is just not an option. And I also strongly feel that a DCA inspector flying in controlled airspace has no clue as to how the aircraft really have to be flown in the bush anyway. GPS approaches into too short, too rough, hairy runways, spiral approaches at VNE till short finals etc...which are all part of the stay alive senario in the bush dont get practised in the annual renewal anyway. I would rather do what I need to keep the plane flying and "safe". As for the medicals, I dont remember when I last did one. The way I see it is, if I feel fine I am sure I dont need to have a doctor (R500 later) to tell me what I already know!?!
I agree 100 percent with you post! I too have been flying on this continent for the last 12 years on several different aircraft types. The annual renewals do come "a bit" too often every now and again. There have been a couple years when I have just carried on flying with the old license as leaving the bush to do a renewal is just not an option. And I also strongly feel that a DCA inspector flying in controlled airspace has no clue as to how the aircraft really have to be flown in the bush anyway. GPS approaches into too short, too rough, hairy runways, spiral approaches at VNE till short finals etc...which are all part of the stay alive senario in the bush dont get practised in the annual renewal anyway. I would rather do what I need to keep the plane flying and "safe". As for the medicals, I dont remember when I last did one. The way I see it is, if I feel fine I am sure I dont need to have a doctor (R500 later) to tell me what I already know!?!
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 180
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From: somewhere
You obviously don't know what a "map shift" is. Please go back and read my previous post.
Also displaying my ignorance again
- but couldn't the potential terrorist use real world flight planning software to get the real lat/long co-ordinates for the target ?