... and bankruptcy for all?
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Join Date: Jul 2001
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... and bankruptcy for all?
This question goes out in particular to our colleagues in the US. Now that Bush has declared war, were there any immediate reactions on your flight line as to job (in)security, if not to say the survival of your entire company? No need for calling your employer by name, just trying to get an understanding of the US situation (e.g. will congress bail out the industry) and US pilot’s opinion.
By the way, I’m not trying to politicise the war, nor Bushes decision to do so!
By the way, I’m not trying to politicise the war, nor Bushes decision to do so!
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The US government should never EVER consider bailing out any airline, whose management has run it into the ground, due to very poor basic business decisions
In addition, the same goes for ANY air carrier whose employees have, in the past, held the company to ransom for excessive salaries.
In short, what goes around, comes around, and the sooner learned, the better.
A clean sweep in most air carrier managements is long overdue.
In addition, the same goes for ANY air carrier whose employees have, in the past, held the company to ransom for excessive salaries.
In short, what goes around, comes around, and the sooner learned, the better.
A clean sweep in most air carrier managements is long overdue.
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411A
You continue to amaze - exactly how many companies have you run and out of those how many have been successful ?
The threat of war and 911 are the two most damaging things to happen to this industry since the Wright brothers first took to the air.
N380UA's post I believe was to get an idea on the effect of the latest on Iraq, nothing to do with managements ability.
Americain's are well known for not travelling during such times as war and uncertainty, put the greatest corporate minds in the world incharge of an airline and even they wont be able to compensate for lack of revenue.
Wake up and smell the coffee chum
rt
You continue to amaze - exactly how many companies have you run and out of those how many have been successful ?
The threat of war and 911 are the two most damaging things to happen to this industry since the Wright brothers first took to the air.
N380UA's post I believe was to get an idea on the effect of the latest on Iraq, nothing to do with managements ability.
Americain's are well known for not travelling during such times as war and uncertainty, put the greatest corporate minds in the world incharge of an airline and even they wont be able to compensate for lack of revenue.
Wake up and smell the coffee chum
rt
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Sorry rupetime, you are quite mis-informed.
A few airlines have not over-expanded, or purchased bankrupt carriers, or had excessive salary demands shoved down managements throats or forgotten 'customer service'.....the list goes on.
In times when traffic disappears in large numbers, an airline that has been well managed will survive, and without a bailout from any government.
Southwest comes to mind.
Airtran is another.
Even Continental could be added to the list.
The folks at UAL and AA will just have to suffer the problems that poor management(s) have provided in recent years.
And, a turnaround at US Air is not out of the question. Just might happen...the folks there have 'woken up and smelled the coffee'...I hope.
A few airlines have not over-expanded, or purchased bankrupt carriers, or had excessive salary demands shoved down managements throats or forgotten 'customer service'.....the list goes on.
In times when traffic disappears in large numbers, an airline that has been well managed will survive, and without a bailout from any government.
Southwest comes to mind.
Airtran is another.
Even Continental could be added to the list.
The folks at UAL and AA will just have to suffer the problems that poor management(s) have provided in recent years.
And, a turnaround at US Air is not out of the question. Just might happen...the folks there have 'woken up and smelled the coffee'...I hope.
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Have to agree with the "GTSIO GRENADIER" on this one, United's woes began long before the 9-11 attacks..an impossible situation for several years before..maybe the ATSB was right after all?
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Three thoughts, then silence from me.
1) My job is relatively secure.
2) I agree with 411A: Either they want a free market or not. Either they want the government out of their business or not. They can't have it both ways.
3) Only the US Congress can declare war per the US Constitution. Bush's declaration of war should be squelched by Congress. Both Bush and Congress are acting recklessly and unconstitutionally.
4) I'd like to see a clean sweep of airline managers and US politicos.
Bumlickers all.
[Edited for fourth point. Sue me.]
2) I agree with 411A: Either they want a free market or not. Either they want the government out of their business or not. They can't have it both ways.
3) Only the US Congress can declare war per the US Constitution. Bush's declaration of war should be squelched by Congress. Both Bush and Congress are acting recklessly and unconstitutionally.
4) I'd like to see a clean sweep of airline managers and US politicos.
Bumlickers all.
[Edited for fourth point. Sue me.]
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Feast & Famine
My job's become busier, ...although it's only as good as my next landing. No pilots are furloughed and most are flying 83 hours per month. Several airplanes are operating AMC (Air Mobility Command) flights, each requiring 4 positioned crews around the clock. It is just as it was during the last Gulf War, some carriers are busier than ever while some carriers are having to park airplanes in the desert. 
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UA/US/HA and next ... AA?
380UA is obviously concerned, and I feel for him.
I was furloughed after the seniority integration between TWA/AA, when I lost my 7 years of service to new-hire, probationary AA F/Os who were'nt even on THE PROPERTY at AA when the merger was announced. They are still working and I am furloughed. Fair deal, eh? AA pilots think so.AA has 3% of their pilots furoughed and TWA has 45%. AA has been making TWA employees pay for what happened to them on 9-11 ever since, and not many remain. Soon there won't be any TWA employees left, and AA people will start losing their jobs.
Having said that, I hear AA will take great advantage of UA's demise if liquidated, and recall every pilot to fly UA routes with AA jets. Personally, I would NEVER want to take advantage of another's misfortune---especially since I have colleagues at UA who are also worried.
I hope UA and US and HA fix their problems and our economy improves; I would never wish what happened to TWA's employees (or other bankrupt carriers') on anyone.
Best of luck, 380UA.
I was furloughed after the seniority integration between TWA/AA, when I lost my 7 years of service to new-hire, probationary AA F/Os who were'nt even on THE PROPERTY at AA when the merger was announced. They are still working and I am furloughed. Fair deal, eh? AA pilots think so.AA has 3% of their pilots furoughed and TWA has 45%. AA has been making TWA employees pay for what happened to them on 9-11 ever since, and not many remain. Soon there won't be any TWA employees left, and AA people will start losing their jobs.
Having said that, I hear AA will take great advantage of UA's demise if liquidated, and recall every pilot to fly UA routes with AA jets. Personally, I would NEVER want to take advantage of another's misfortune---especially since I have colleagues at UA who are also worried.
I hope UA and US and HA fix their problems and our economy improves; I would never wish what happened to TWA's employees (or other bankrupt carriers') on anyone.
Best of luck, 380UA.
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Airlines tickets in the US are now taxed at 44%, compared to around 25% pre-9/11/2001. Meanwhile, due to economic pressure and public opinion, the ticket prices keep falling while fuel prices have nearly doubled. The resulting economic fallout is not the fault of the airlines' business plans. Further, the airlines have been required to pay for many government ordered "security enhancments". At Hawaiian, my airline, management has said these were to the tune of $30 million - over 50% of the money we lost last year. The US government should be paying the added security costs. They require it - they pay for it.
Even though Hawaiian declared chapter 11 bankruptcy, we are in no danger of going into chapter 7. All the employee groups have given concessions in the last few months and management has asked the judge to honor these contracts. The bankruptcy is aimed at our aircraft lessors. We are currently paying well in excess (up to 50% higher) than the going market rate for our aircraft on leases signed pre-9/11/2001. Boeing and Annsett have bulked lowering the rates. Our mangement says that we will not have any schedule reductins and planned expansion in the fall will still happen. We have 93 pilots (out of 450) either on furlough or with furlough notices. The fall expansion should drop us to half that number on furlough so things are looking up. US aviation experts are saying that Hawaiian's chapter 11 filing was probably a very smart business move.
Having said all that, the war could cause all of the airlines' economic recovery plans to go down the crapper and put everyone in dire economic condition. While I support the war, the airlines should receive financial aid for losses suffered due to government policies and actions.
Even though Hawaiian declared chapter 11 bankruptcy, we are in no danger of going into chapter 7. All the employee groups have given concessions in the last few months and management has asked the judge to honor these contracts. The bankruptcy is aimed at our aircraft lessors. We are currently paying well in excess (up to 50% higher) than the going market rate for our aircraft on leases signed pre-9/11/2001. Boeing and Annsett have bulked lowering the rates. Our mangement says that we will not have any schedule reductins and planned expansion in the fall will still happen. We have 93 pilots (out of 450) either on furlough or with furlough notices. The fall expansion should drop us to half that number on furlough so things are looking up. US aviation experts are saying that Hawaiian's chapter 11 filing was probably a very smart business move.
Having said all that, the war could cause all of the airlines' economic recovery plans to go down the crapper and put everyone in dire economic condition. While I support the war, the airlines should receive financial aid for losses suffered due to government policies and actions.
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HAL
And who exactly do you think the US government is?
Surely it's the people, where else does the money come from (oh ... sorry, of course the US has been running a multi-trillion dollar budget deficit for years). My point is that security has to be paid for, now should that be by the general public or the travelling public? ie a poor family struggling to get by or by companies and the better off individuals!
The ticket prices must reflect the cost. If not enough people are then not prepared to fly at the ticket price then reduce capacity. Pretty basic supply/demand economics really. But don't export your problems using Chapter 11 across the Atlantic to Europe, by artificially cross subsidising ticket prices - deal with YOUR problem locally.
The US government should be paying the added security costs. They require it - they pay for it.
Surely it's the people, where else does the money come from (oh ... sorry, of course the US has been running a multi-trillion dollar budget deficit for years). My point is that security has to be paid for, now should that be by the general public or the travelling public? ie a poor family struggling to get by or by companies and the better off individuals!
The ticket prices must reflect the cost. If not enough people are then not prepared to fly at the ticket price then reduce capacity. Pretty basic supply/demand economics really. But don't export your problems using Chapter 11 across the Atlantic to Europe, by artificially cross subsidising ticket prices - deal with YOUR problem locally.
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767300ER: Your loss of seniority is your "payment" for having a job at AA, because TW would have run out of cash on its own....Which is to say that beggars can't be choosers. But the elected Billy Goats running ALPA are largely responsible for the carriers' biased seniority intergration. As to UA: It's a goner. AA will prosper and for the most part will fill UA's vacuum in the South Pacific, reintroducing service to Australia. Wait and see.
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Actually, GlueBall, it was a joint effort between ALPA, APA and AA.
I certainly don't think its right to furlough ONLY TWA employees after 9-11 when we did'nt have anything to do with the attacks. Why should AA new-hires stay and long-time TWA employees get axed? Since AA's drowning in red ink, thru no fault of TWA employees, why should'nt AA employees share it that pain and suffering?
Not sure UA is 'a goner' if the US govt gives it a war-type cash bailout.
I certainly don't think its right to furlough ONLY TWA employees after 9-11 when we did'nt have anything to do with the attacks. Why should AA new-hires stay and long-time TWA employees get axed? Since AA's drowning in red ink, thru no fault of TWA employees, why should'nt AA employees share it that pain and suffering?
Not sure UA is 'a goner' if the US govt gives it a war-type cash bailout.
