Swiss downsize definite
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Pay the price
Mr Studi "GOD",
Do you think that SWISSAIR collapsed because of CROSSAIR ?
-No!
Ex CROSSAIR pilots have to pay the price now?
-No, because if SWISS is way too big now, it is the fault of AEROPERS, having managed to force the management to accept their silly contract B-GAV with enormous salary, vacations, bonus ( if do you think to have one), at the time of the so-called negociations with the board of directors.
Where is the cost based on CROSSAIR structure? Tell me!
Your goal was to take all the money for you, because it is very hard to fall down to the level of salary of a CROSSAIR pilot! even if it is foreseen that the company will go to drain in a few time.
You do not care about CROSSAIR pilots at all, you care only about you...
But with this attitude the emergency boat will sink and you also!
Hope you can swim.
Flying European routes half empty with A320 or regional aeroplane fully booked, tell me which one is making money!
You can twist the figures as you want, the result will enlight you but it will be too late then.
All this story is only a political and emotional but not rational-economical matter, we are the best, we know, there is nothing to change...
Amen! and good luck...
Do you think that SWISSAIR collapsed because of CROSSAIR ?
-No!
Ex CROSSAIR pilots have to pay the price now?
-No, because if SWISS is way too big now, it is the fault of AEROPERS, having managed to force the management to accept their silly contract B-GAV with enormous salary, vacations, bonus ( if do you think to have one), at the time of the so-called negociations with the board of directors.
Where is the cost based on CROSSAIR structure? Tell me!
Your goal was to take all the money for you, because it is very hard to fall down to the level of salary of a CROSSAIR pilot! even if it is foreseen that the company will go to drain in a few time.
You do not care about CROSSAIR pilots at all, you care only about you...
But with this attitude the emergency boat will sink and you also!
Hope you can swim.
Flying European routes half empty with A320 or regional aeroplane fully booked, tell me which one is making money!
You can twist the figures as you want, the result will enlight you but it will be too late then.
All this story is only a political and emotional but not rational-economical matter, we are the best, we know, there is nothing to change...
Amen! and good luck...
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Would it be better if both crossair and swiss air would revert back to the pre-swiss airline situation as two separet companies. Then each companies could make their own adjustments as per their need. Reason being two companies with diffrent culture are not compatable. This is a wishful thinking but did anybody wish for this?
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Number1 Aeropers post
My understanding is that Swiss Pilots (ex-Crossair) have accepted that Long Haul (A330, MD11, A340) pilots should be remunerated higher than their Short Haul counterparts. Does Medium Haul exist and does Short Haul include the so-called "Regional Fleet"?
When this Aeropers(ex-Swissair) post above and their position is analysed, it is basically providing an argument and justification for salary based on aircraft size and range. This was an argument even rejected in Swissair in the last years with a common salary structure based on start date ignoring different types(size and range)flown(even considering mixed fleet flying). Maybe now to its detriment? This increasing pay for larger aircraft is not being applied within the Airbus and MD11 fleet today where a common salary structure exists. This argument when extended to its logical conclusion would mean increasing and different salary for ERJ145(49 seat), Saab2000(50), EJ170(70), RJ85/100(82/97), EJ195(108), MD83(156-163), A319(110-126), A320(134-150), A320Swiss Sun(168), A321(170-186), A330(196-230), A340(228), MD11(241).
The question is "very simply" according to career model, type and seat freeze, fluctuation, retraining cost, new aircraft introduction/ replacement of old aircraft, common type rating, mixed fleet flying, aircraft size and range, market, routes and yield difference, technology, speed, cost per available seat-km, cost per available tonne-km etc etc etc, how do you wish to categorize aircraft and salary? SWISS management and Aeropers argue that no difference exists between an A319(110 seat) and a MD11(241 seat), and Swiss Pilots argue there is no difference between a RJ100(97 seat) and a A319(110 seat).
In the end one can reinvent the wheel many times, Benchmark until the cows come home, seek out World's Best Practice, apply Industry Standard as if a single one exists, and arrive at something which provides a competitve advantage and flexibility for the company and is somehow acceptable to the pilot unions. You can also throw in for good measure some concept of Safety verses Cost Structure. Was the previous Crossair cost structure too cheap, whereas the new SWISS cost structure in the current market is undoubtedly way too high? Current management refuse to provide details (even taking into account commercially sensitive info) on relative yields(as opposed to some very generic SLF info) and of a breakdown and allocation of costs to enable any sensible comment on the latest 20 aircraft reduction.
The above Aeropers reference also conveniently ignores the fact that ex-Swissair pilots were newly employed by Crossair 31 March 2002 without undergoing any selection, qualification, screening or training by Crossair(now called SWISS). This situation allowed around 880 pilots to join a company and fly under an AOC without ANY standards being applied. Yes, the FOCA/BAZL approved this. These would be unemployed Aeropers pilots fought for and won the support of the new Board of Directors and ex-Crossair management for a system they previously found abhorrent. "Don't do as I do, but do what I say!"
The whole process is not helped by a weak, pliant and incompetent management, an overall Business Plan(if one now actually exists?) which is based on Charity, Social Welfare, Politics and Emotion, and not on any economic argument or concept of financial responsibility. How prophetic for the original plan to be called Phoenix with SWISS flying out of the ashes of the bankrupted Swissair only to nose dive back to the nest to inflame itself at an unprecedented rate. Finally there exists two seemingly irreconcilable pilots groups; one whose EGO(highlighted above) is simply hypocritical and moreover dangerous, the other whose raised expectations and demands in relation to salary and conditions ignore economic reality. Aeropers may have won the power game, SWISS Pilots may win the legal argument too late, and the over blown SWISS will continue to downsize all areas in the future as its cash reserves plummit. Switzerland and SWISS have provided a new airline industry standard: How to make a huge loss, start with a huge amount of money!
Tschüssi
When this Aeropers(ex-Swissair) post above and their position is analysed, it is basically providing an argument and justification for salary based on aircraft size and range. This was an argument even rejected in Swissair in the last years with a common salary structure based on start date ignoring different types(size and range)flown(even considering mixed fleet flying). Maybe now to its detriment? This increasing pay for larger aircraft is not being applied within the Airbus and MD11 fleet today where a common salary structure exists. This argument when extended to its logical conclusion would mean increasing and different salary for ERJ145(49 seat), Saab2000(50), EJ170(70), RJ85/100(82/97), EJ195(108), MD83(156-163), A319(110-126), A320(134-150), A320Swiss Sun(168), A321(170-186), A330(196-230), A340(228), MD11(241).
The question is "very simply" according to career model, type and seat freeze, fluctuation, retraining cost, new aircraft introduction/ replacement of old aircraft, common type rating, mixed fleet flying, aircraft size and range, market, routes and yield difference, technology, speed, cost per available seat-km, cost per available tonne-km etc etc etc, how do you wish to categorize aircraft and salary? SWISS management and Aeropers argue that no difference exists between an A319(110 seat) and a MD11(241 seat), and Swiss Pilots argue there is no difference between a RJ100(97 seat) and a A319(110 seat).
In the end one can reinvent the wheel many times, Benchmark until the cows come home, seek out World's Best Practice, apply Industry Standard as if a single one exists, and arrive at something which provides a competitve advantage and flexibility for the company and is somehow acceptable to the pilot unions. You can also throw in for good measure some concept of Safety verses Cost Structure. Was the previous Crossair cost structure too cheap, whereas the new SWISS cost structure in the current market is undoubtedly way too high? Current management refuse to provide details (even taking into account commercially sensitive info) on relative yields(as opposed to some very generic SLF info) and of a breakdown and allocation of costs to enable any sensible comment on the latest 20 aircraft reduction.
The above Aeropers reference also conveniently ignores the fact that ex-Swissair pilots were newly employed by Crossair 31 March 2002 without undergoing any selection, qualification, screening or training by Crossair(now called SWISS). This situation allowed around 880 pilots to join a company and fly under an AOC without ANY standards being applied. Yes, the FOCA/BAZL approved this. These would be unemployed Aeropers pilots fought for and won the support of the new Board of Directors and ex-Crossair management for a system they previously found abhorrent. "Don't do as I do, but do what I say!"
The whole process is not helped by a weak, pliant and incompetent management, an overall Business Plan(if one now actually exists?) which is based on Charity, Social Welfare, Politics and Emotion, and not on any economic argument or concept of financial responsibility. How prophetic for the original plan to be called Phoenix with SWISS flying out of the ashes of the bankrupted Swissair only to nose dive back to the nest to inflame itself at an unprecedented rate. Finally there exists two seemingly irreconcilable pilots groups; one whose EGO(highlighted above) is simply hypocritical and moreover dangerous, the other whose raised expectations and demands in relation to salary and conditions ignore economic reality. Aeropers may have won the power game, SWISS Pilots may win the legal argument too late, and the over blown SWISS will continue to downsize all areas in the future as its cash reserves plummit. Switzerland and SWISS have provided a new airline industry standard: How to make a huge loss, start with a huge amount of money!
Tschüssi
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Comparison table?
Is there any public comparison table anywhere that shows the number of employees per commuter, short-haul, and long-haul aircraft across different airlines? Just wondering what "best in class" is, from that perspective. I realize not all comparisons are meaningful, as each airline decides to subcontract different things, and it is difficult to take that into account.
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Momo
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Middlepath,
Two separate companies is a no go. It would look too much like the good old SAir Group and the creditors still have a, roughly 18 billion Swiss Franks, axe to grind.
Even in the present situation, the "expansion" of Crossair into Swiss is already very difficult to explain to Air Lib, Sabena and all the other creditors, as it looks an awfull lot like the ´virtually bankrupt´ SAir Group. The low Crossair cost structure has been completely abandoned and the seniority list agreed upon by managment and Aeropers (rejected by the CCP/SPA) refered to ´date of entry´ into... you guessed it : the SAir Group and not Crossair.
Expansion of Crossair ? A merger between Crossair and Swissair ? It appears as if Swissair simply hijacked Crossair, re-named the company Swiss (Swiss = Swissair-air) and is trying very hard to throw out the former employees.
So far no ´blue letters´ (pink slips) have been posted because the seniority issue is still not solved. Within a few weeks a judge from the Basel Court of Arbitration will come with a verdict.
We´ll see what happens next. If we lose, then at least we have tried our best. If we win, all hell will break lose ! Brace before impact !
Two separate companies is a no go. It would look too much like the good old SAir Group and the creditors still have a, roughly 18 billion Swiss Franks, axe to grind.
Even in the present situation, the "expansion" of Crossair into Swiss is already very difficult to explain to Air Lib, Sabena and all the other creditors, as it looks an awfull lot like the ´virtually bankrupt´ SAir Group. The low Crossair cost structure has been completely abandoned and the seniority list agreed upon by managment and Aeropers (rejected by the CCP/SPA) refered to ´date of entry´ into... you guessed it : the SAir Group and not Crossair.
Expansion of Crossair ? A merger between Crossair and Swissair ? It appears as if Swissair simply hijacked Crossair, re-named the company Swiss (Swiss = Swissair-air) and is trying very hard to throw out the former employees.
So far no ´blue letters´ (pink slips) have been posted because the seniority issue is still not solved. Within a few weeks a judge from the Basel Court of Arbitration will come with a verdict.
We´ll see what happens next. If we lose, then at least we have tried our best. If we win, all hell will break lose ! Brace before impact !
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point one
I fail to see the point of constantly bickering about who may or may not have survived and about who is doing a better job or is better qualified. I'm kind of sick having to read those kind of posts as they don't offer any solution.
point two
don't expect the company to wait for a court verdict. those letters will go out in two weeks and it would be nice if the union would finally show some responsibilty and begin to help to construct a layoff plan for those affected.
point three
I hope for our all sake that the company will survive the next 24 months because if it doesn't then a lot of posts will with hindsight seem rather silly. what will it matter then who has the shinier uniform gathering dust in the cupboard...
I fail to see the point of constantly bickering about who may or may not have survived and about who is doing a better job or is better qualified. I'm kind of sick having to read those kind of posts as they don't offer any solution.
point two
don't expect the company to wait for a court verdict. those letters will go out in two weeks and it would be nice if the union would finally show some responsibilty and begin to help to construct a layoff plan for those affected.
point three
I hope for our all sake that the company will survive the next 24 months because if it doesn't then a lot of posts will with hindsight seem rather silly. what will it matter then who has the shinier uniform gathering dust in the cupboard...
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For 'B' Permit holders who have been resident for longer than 1 year, I've been told it's 18 months unemployment benefit at 70% of base salary, 80% if you have children/wife, with a maximum of 7000CHF monthly.
In other words, a lot better than the UK, but the proviso is that Swiss companies do not normally give Severance pay.
Info comes from ex-pats who lost jobs after Swissair collapse.
In other words, a lot better than the UK, but the proviso is that Swiss companies do not normally give Severance pay.
Info comes from ex-pats who lost jobs after Swissair collapse.
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downsize of swiss,
Dcs99 do you have any idea about , the unemployment money foreigners living in the EU will get ?
But to add a little to this forum: basically the "old" swissair was saved because Crossair flew 40% wet lease for swr, with saving swr ,crossair would be saved as well.
Now they are reducing the amount of flights from basel more and more, its likely that we will end up losing 60% of our flights (from basel).......This is all part of a very corrupt and political influenced plan.
Its time that SWISSPILOTS bangs on the table with their fist and finally takes some action, but off course that will not happen, the swiss mentality is not like that, striking is allmost considered a capital crime.....
And so it will happen that the last 200 pilots will just lose their job, and the union doesn`t do anything, they want to stick to the rules and play it via the court ,which suprisingly takes ages to get to a verdict, and when it will finally comes to a verdict it will be one wich can be explained both ways.
and in the mean time maybe 400 pilots will have lost their jobs...
but at least it has been played acoording to the rules.........
But to add a little to this forum: basically the "old" swissair was saved because Crossair flew 40% wet lease for swr, with saving swr ,crossair would be saved as well.
Now they are reducing the amount of flights from basel more and more, its likely that we will end up losing 60% of our flights (from basel).......This is all part of a very corrupt and political influenced plan.
Its time that SWISSPILOTS bangs on the table with their fist and finally takes some action, but off course that will not happen, the swiss mentality is not like that, striking is allmost considered a capital crime.....
And so it will happen that the last 200 pilots will just lose their job, and the union doesn`t do anything, they want to stick to the rules and play it via the court ,which suprisingly takes ages to get to a verdict, and when it will finally comes to a verdict it will be one wich can be explained both ways.
and in the mean time maybe 400 pilots will have lost their jobs...
but at least it has been played acoording to the rules.........
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Dumb and Dumber? Dick und Doof!
Deppen, alle samt!
Lying in the trenches, fire from just about everywhere and our fine pilots are knocking in their heads. Great!! Ya'll carry on like that! Hey, what do I care I'm already out and well established. But frankly, I’m getting tired of all this childish “hi said, she said”.
Carry on like this! go belly up, yet again! completely ruin aviation in Switzerland. Ohh, and for any of you in the strong believe that the state and industries will pull your cart of bull out of the mud again rest assured it won’t happen!
Good luck in finding a job as comfortable, flying missionaries through the bush. Crack out the old C208 manual already, slightly different specs. than a warm and comfy A320.
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Where you should be!!
N380UA
If your flying Vans after 320s congratualtions...and enjoy!!!
Youve got one of those fantastic T shirts: BEEN THERE DONE THAT;
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!!
Bon Chance!!
If your flying Vans after 320s congratualtions...and enjoy!!!
Youve got one of those fantastic T shirts: BEEN THERE DONE THAT;
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!!
Bon Chance!!
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For Max Endurance
Sorry don't know what happens if you're living in the EU.
(I assume you fly out of Basel and live in France like most of the
British Engineers seem to do?)
The folks I knew who got the axe were all Züri based Swissair Group staff. I'll ask around.
(I assume you fly out of Basel and live in France like most of the
British Engineers seem to do?)
The folks I knew who got the axe were all Züri based Swissair Group staff. I'll ask around.
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126,7
I wasn’t referring to those that are being laid of but rather the destruction of BOTH pilot corps by their BOTH immature actions, hence 320s 330s and for some the 11s.
But you’re right of course it’ll be the comfy 2000ers first. For those unfortunate souls there is nothing that can be done. But all the others ought to start to get their act together.
My posts may seem written on the harsh side of things though I didn’t mean to be condescending at all, merely stating the obvious and hoping to avoid ALL flyers sitting on the ground whining to be up there .
I wasn’t referring to those that are being laid of but rather the destruction of BOTH pilot corps by their BOTH immature actions, hence 320s 330s and for some the 11s.
But you’re right of course it’ll be the comfy 2000ers first. For those unfortunate souls there is nothing that can be done. But all the others ought to start to get their act together.
My posts may seem written on the harsh side of things though I didn’t mean to be condescending at all, merely stating the obvious and hoping to avoid ALL flyers sitting on the ground whining to be up there .
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N380UA
You don´t seem to completely understand that there is a huge battle for survival going on within Swiss.
It´s more then about a "he said, she said" situation.
From the ex-SR camp, they have tried to discredit us in every way possible and tried to rob us from our seniority with only one goal in mind : SWISS is for ex-SR pilots only.
The only defence for ex-Crossair pilots against this was to take legal action.
Ofcourse to an outsider it all looks the same. If I look through the various threads here on pprune, they all seem to go back to the same old "he said, she said" whether it´s about easyJet, Ryanair, KLM UK, Swiss, BA etcetera.
I don´t think you would appreciate it if an outsider would tell you : "oh, stop complaining at United, just hand in 30% of your already large pay check, and get on with it" or "if you lose your job, too bad, just brush up your CFII knowlegde and start flight instructing again for $10/hour."
You don´t seem to completely understand that there is a huge battle for survival going on within Swiss.
It´s more then about a "he said, she said" situation.
From the ex-SR camp, they have tried to discredit us in every way possible and tried to rob us from our seniority with only one goal in mind : SWISS is for ex-SR pilots only.
The only defence for ex-Crossair pilots against this was to take legal action.
Ofcourse to an outsider it all looks the same. If I look through the various threads here on pprune, they all seem to go back to the same old "he said, she said" whether it´s about easyJet, Ryanair, KLM UK, Swiss, BA etcetera.
I don´t think you would appreciate it if an outsider would tell you : "oh, stop complaining at United, just hand in 30% of your already large pay check, and get on with it" or "if you lose your job, too bad, just brush up your CFII knowlegde and start flight instructing again for $10/hour."
Last edited by Robert Vesco; 4th Mar 2003 at 12:15.
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Sorry to spoil your SWISS-beating party...
Nice words RV, only that you haven't given anything so far, while those (in this forum) much beaten ex-Swissair pilots actually have given 35% of their salary - on top of 30% lay-offs that is...
Now let me tell you a few facts:
CCP denied 16% pay increase as not sufficient - they want the same salaries for a Saab pilot as for an MD11 pilot (as - according to CCP - the only difference between the two is, that longhaul pilots leave their Autopilot on a little longer
)
CCP also desires factual protection from dismissals, as according to them all 840 ex-Swissair pilots would have to go before any of them was layed off. This in spite of the fact that the Crossair fleet was hugely oversized from the start (I have been poining this out for more than a year). What CCP wants is that ex-Swissair staff not only has to pay for Swissair's mistakes (what they already did), but also for Crossair's, now that they are corrected. In the meantime CCP pilots cannot be dismissed, have higher salaries and fly the big planes (according CCPseniority). Why for gods sake doesn't AEROPERS agree to this plan?!?
CCP is unwilling to do the least bit for the survival of SWISS. They do not show up to union talks, they seem to try to scare away our passengers with statements about CCP-pilots fitness to fly, and they even ran to court because SWISS wanted them - as all other employees, including ex-Swissair always did - to pay something for their airport-parkings. The last point IMHO shows CCPs state of mind remarkably well!
CCP argues that a Seniority Number according to SAir Lines - which Swissair and Crossair were part of - will make SWISS liable for SAir Groups depts. To think that pilot seniority will make a difference after SWISS took over 2/3 of Swissair's employees, aircraft and infrastructure and its whole know how without paying a penny seems rather naive to me!
There have been some who said the two unions behave childish. While I'd rather not comment on CCP, I have to say that I don't see AEROPERS fit in here. AEROPERS does everything to support the management in making SWISS a safe and profitable airline. I hope that the CCP members with some sense of resposibility and reason will hinder their union from destroying their employer the same way as CCP destroyed its goodwill within SWISS and Switzerland...
Just a little quiz for the seniority specialists:
If all ex-SR get an entry date of 31.03.2002, which pilots fly which aircraft, who is Captain and who First Officer and who will be dismissed? All have the same entry date and there is no possibility of direct entry Captains. Funny situation! May I guess the CCP solution? Get rid of all ex-SR and the problem is solved! Why is AEROPERS to stupid to see the simplicity and beauty of this solution???
I don´t think you would appreciate it if an outsider would tell you : "oh, stop complaining at United, just hand in 30% of your already large pay check, and get on with it"
Now let me tell you a few facts:
CCP denied 16% pay increase as not sufficient - they want the same salaries for a Saab pilot as for an MD11 pilot (as - according to CCP - the only difference between the two is, that longhaul pilots leave their Autopilot on a little longer
)CCP also desires factual protection from dismissals, as according to them all 840 ex-Swissair pilots would have to go before any of them was layed off. This in spite of the fact that the Crossair fleet was hugely oversized from the start (I have been poining this out for more than a year). What CCP wants is that ex-Swissair staff not only has to pay for Swissair's mistakes (what they already did), but also for Crossair's, now that they are corrected. In the meantime CCP pilots cannot be dismissed, have higher salaries and fly the big planes (according CCPseniority). Why for gods sake doesn't AEROPERS agree to this plan?!?
CCP is unwilling to do the least bit for the survival of SWISS. They do not show up to union talks, they seem to try to scare away our passengers with statements about CCP-pilots fitness to fly, and they even ran to court because SWISS wanted them - as all other employees, including ex-Swissair always did - to pay something for their airport-parkings. The last point IMHO shows CCPs state of mind remarkably well!
CCP argues that a Seniority Number according to SAir Lines - which Swissair and Crossair were part of - will make SWISS liable for SAir Groups depts. To think that pilot seniority will make a difference after SWISS took over 2/3 of Swissair's employees, aircraft and infrastructure and its whole know how without paying a penny seems rather naive to me!
There have been some who said the two unions behave childish. While I'd rather not comment on CCP, I have to say that I don't see AEROPERS fit in here. AEROPERS does everything to support the management in making SWISS a safe and profitable airline. I hope that the CCP members with some sense of resposibility and reason will hinder their union from destroying their employer the same way as CCP destroyed its goodwill within SWISS and Switzerland...
Just a little quiz for the seniority specialists:
If all ex-SR get an entry date of 31.03.2002, which pilots fly which aircraft, who is Captain and who First Officer and who will be dismissed? All have the same entry date and there is no possibility of direct entry Captains. Funny situation! May I guess the CCP solution? Get rid of all ex-SR and the problem is solved! Why is AEROPERS to stupid to see the simplicity and beauty of this solution???
Last edited by skypointer; 4th Mar 2003 at 15:25.
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Hi Skypointer !
I´m not going to (again) start replying to everything in your post. There are enough threads on PPRuNe already about that !
We´ll see what happens next. Aeropers has bet on one horse (SAir Group seniority, with no compromises) and it now appears that this horse is losing while the downsizing begins and the Court of Abitration will produce a verdict before the end of the month.
Maybe some "seniority specialist" can remind Skypointer what happens to a seniority number when you join another company.
I´m not going to (again) start replying to everything in your post. There are enough threads on PPRuNe already about that !
We´ll see what happens next. Aeropers has bet on one horse (SAir Group seniority, with no compromises) and it now appears that this horse is losing while the downsizing begins and the Court of Abitration will produce a verdict before the end of the month.
Maybe some "seniority specialist" can remind Skypointer what happens to a seniority number when you join another company.
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Are you talking about the same threads where you stated that the SWISS Longhaoul fleet was way to big while ex-Crossair was just fine and profitable?
Now the court seems to be your last hope. But while you never know what stupidity comes next from our dear lawyers, it will certainly not safe any CCP jobs - whatever they decide. Either SWISS is right and the jobs are history or the court rules in favor of CCP and SWISS is history if it follows the verdict. Sad bud true. What do you prefere?
Again, just hypotetically: Who do you dismiss if all ex-SR have the same entry date 31.03.02, as CCP demands? All?
Obviously you ran out of arguments!
Now the court seems to be your last hope. But while you never know what stupidity comes next from our dear lawyers, it will certainly not safe any CCP jobs - whatever they decide. Either SWISS is right and the jobs are history or the court rules in favor of CCP and SWISS is history if it follows the verdict. Sad bud true. What do you prefere?
Again, just hypotetically: Who do you dismiss if all ex-SR have the same entry date 31.03.02, as CCP demands? All?
Obviously you ran out of arguments!