Shuttle Columbia breaks up during re-enry
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I have listened to and read some comments in the media that suggest that manned space flight should end as a result of this tragic event. Manned space flight is the last great adventure for mankind in my opinion. As with all great adventures there is great risk and people will die. One only needs to look at the history of aviation to see the truth of this.
If mankind wants life without risk then we have no future as a species. For me and I suspect many who have posted on this forum these seven individuals died in pursuit of all our dreams to explore and push the boundaries of knowledge, there is no question the manned space program must go on. The best tribute that can be paid to these seven explorers is to increase the funding to NASA and European Space Agency. An unmanned space program whilst interesting will never inspire our children or fire their imaginations in the same way.
I am sure there will be some in NASA who will be feeling great pain at this time wondering if there is something more they could have done to prevent this tragedy. The most remarkable thing about the space program is how few accidents there have been when you consider the risks involved. From what I have seen this has been due to the dedication, enthusiasm and professionalism of all those who work for NASA.
My heart felt condolences to the astronaut’s families and all those in the NASA family.
If mankind wants life without risk then we have no future as a species. For me and I suspect many who have posted on this forum these seven individuals died in pursuit of all our dreams to explore and push the boundaries of knowledge, there is no question the manned space program must go on. The best tribute that can be paid to these seven explorers is to increase the funding to NASA and European Space Agency. An unmanned space program whilst interesting will never inspire our children or fire their imaginations in the same way.
I am sure there will be some in NASA who will be feeling great pain at this time wondering if there is something more they could have done to prevent this tragedy. The most remarkable thing about the space program is how few accidents there have been when you consider the risks involved. From what I have seen this has been due to the dedication, enthusiasm and professionalism of all those who work for NASA.
My heart felt condolences to the astronaut’s families and all those in the NASA family.
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Memorandum: To America From God
February 1, 2003
America, this crew you chose, is the finest in the land,
And if you'll pause a moment, I will share with you my plan.
The message I delivered to the crew was very clear,
"This flight goes straight to Heaven, fear not, for I am near."
"My children I am with you, this trip is one I've planned,
Yes....this trip is something special, it's one that God will man.
Heaven's Great Space Center needs some special help up there.
The Master has now summoned and is asking us to share."
They quickly volunteered for this mission in the sky,
Not a one was unprepared, not a one afraid to try.
"You'll go swiftly to the Master, and that trail of smoke they'll see,
Is the 'changing of the pilots,' for you're traveling on with me."
"You must leave this famous shuttle that you're sitting in, behind,
For the one I built that's waiting, is pure gold and silver lined,
As you search the fields of Texas in hopes to find them there,
Rest assured they're here beside Me and I have them in My care."
"You have trained them well, America, I've observed your every test,
I stood silently and waited, until you had the best.
I needed them, America, for Heaven's Great Space Plan
Encompasses the entire globe, The Universe of Man."
"I know them well, America, these loved ones you have lost,
I selected them some time ago, forgetting not the cost.
America, my heart is grieved, by your sorrow, tears and pain, and
Though it's little comfort, your loss is Heaven's gain."
Author: Fran R. Maiers
February 1, 2003
February 1, 2003
America, this crew you chose, is the finest in the land,
And if you'll pause a moment, I will share with you my plan.
The message I delivered to the crew was very clear,
"This flight goes straight to Heaven, fear not, for I am near."
"My children I am with you, this trip is one I've planned,
Yes....this trip is something special, it's one that God will man.
Heaven's Great Space Center needs some special help up there.
The Master has now summoned and is asking us to share."
They quickly volunteered for this mission in the sky,
Not a one was unprepared, not a one afraid to try.
"You'll go swiftly to the Master, and that trail of smoke they'll see,
Is the 'changing of the pilots,' for you're traveling on with me."
"You must leave this famous shuttle that you're sitting in, behind,
For the one I built that's waiting, is pure gold and silver lined,
As you search the fields of Texas in hopes to find them there,
Rest assured they're here beside Me and I have them in My care."
"You have trained them well, America, I've observed your every test,
I stood silently and waited, until you had the best.
I needed them, America, for Heaven's Great Space Plan
Encompasses the entire globe, The Universe of Man."
"I know them well, America, these loved ones you have lost,
I selected them some time ago, forgetting not the cost.
America, my heart is grieved, by your sorrow, tears and pain, and
Though it's little comfort, your loss is Heaven's gain."
Author: Fran R. Maiers
February 1, 2003
Total Internal Reflection
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Good Grief!
I think some families could do without this God conspiracy doggerel (even if composed in good faith...).
Makes me angry though... I'll wait for the results of the inquiries before blaming deities.
I think some families could do without this God conspiracy doggerel (even if composed in good faith...).
Makes me angry though... I'll wait for the results of the inquiries before blaming deities.
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Kinsman, what a crock. Spaceflight is great stuff but most if not all the tech advances did not require a highly trained dude sitting up the pointy end. That is the stuff of PR campaigns.
If you want adventure/discovery/pushing the boundarys or any other gospel you subscribe to then it is all here on planet earth. The oceans cover 60 % of the surface and we know cr@p all about what happens/lives/what minerals exist etc below the 200 foot level. You want the "Last Great Frontier" then it is right at your doorstep.
Who cares whether a spider will spin a web clockwise or anticlockwise in micro gravity.....I don't......at least not enough to risk 7 highly trained personnel and a zillion dollar annual budget......go figure.
And as for the god stuff............
If you want adventure/discovery/pushing the boundarys or any other gospel you subscribe to then it is all here on planet earth. The oceans cover 60 % of the surface and we know cr@p all about what happens/lives/what minerals exist etc below the 200 foot level. You want the "Last Great Frontier" then it is right at your doorstep.
Who cares whether a spider will spin a web clockwise or anticlockwise in micro gravity.....I don't......at least not enough to risk 7 highly trained personnel and a zillion dollar annual budget......go figure.
And as for the god stuff............
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Fire Wall clearly a person who spends his life looking down rather than up, my sympathy to you as well!
Given the subject matter of this thread, have a little respect for those who have lost family and friends. If you want to continue this discussion use email!
Given the subject matter of this thread, have a little respect for those who have lost family and friends. If you want to continue this discussion use email!
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Kinsman, I do not need email as I have nothing to hide. I am truely sorry that I upset you, please accept my apologies. I just see this from a different angle. I have every respect for those men and women, that's why it is such a waste to put them at such risk when it is not necessary that they even be there in the first place. I fail to see how you can take humbridge to such.
As for the thinly veiled insult that you felt necessary to throw my way, I will leave that with you to contemplate on whether that was wise or not.
As for the thinly veiled insult that you felt necessary to throw my way, I will leave that with you to contemplate on whether that was wise or not.
Evertonian
Well, seeing the spiders came from my neck of the woods, I'll defend them.
With due respect to the crew of Columbia, I think it's a shame that you don't see the importance in this little experiment. This isn't really the place for this, so I'll cut to the chase.
A group of schoolkids in South Australia, for one small moment in their lives, were a part of something bigger than could ever have been imagined by them. Those kids were a part of a shuttle mission. Can you imagine how important to them & their community & the rest of the country this was? Most of us watch space missions & wonder what it would be like to be a part of the leading edge of exploration. They were a part of it!
They did a lot of research & put in a submission to NASA that was chosen for this flight. Now, as to the merits of the experiment & it's impact on society, I have no knowledge, but it was good enough for NASA.
As to the crew, most of them were on either their first or second mission. As much as it may seem pointless to you, they would've argued how much experience they would gain from real missions, as opposed to simulations.
Now, I agree that the ocean is an untapped source of information and perhaps we should devote some more time & effort towards it. However, space is where the funds are going at the moment and, regardless of whether that's good or bad, it's how it is.
With due respect to the crew of Columbia, I think it's a shame that you don't see the importance in this little experiment. This isn't really the place for this, so I'll cut to the chase.
A group of schoolkids in South Australia, for one small moment in their lives, were a part of something bigger than could ever have been imagined by them. Those kids were a part of a shuttle mission. Can you imagine how important to them & their community & the rest of the country this was? Most of us watch space missions & wonder what it would be like to be a part of the leading edge of exploration. They were a part of it!
They did a lot of research & put in a submission to NASA that was chosen for this flight. Now, as to the merits of the experiment & it's impact on society, I have no knowledge, but it was good enough for NASA.
As to the crew, most of them were on either their first or second mission. As much as it may seem pointless to you, they would've argued how much experience they would gain from real missions, as opposed to simulations.
Now, I agree that the ocean is an untapped source of information and perhaps we should devote some more time & effort towards it. However, space is where the funds are going at the moment and, regardless of whether that's good or bad, it's how it is.
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Comments from U.S. based forum:
We must look to a further horizon. To do otherwise is truly ignorant.
The STS system is over 20 years old yet we expect it to continue to operate like it was an airliner. That may well be proven ignorant. We know ignorance killed the crew in the Challenger explosion. Many many voices have pointed out the unbelievable costs of the ISS and pointed out how for the same price we could have established a lunar base that would have done far more for extraterrestrial travel than any space station could ever have done. Instead, we aquiesced to the political will of our neighbors in an effort to do the politically expedient rather than the scientifically useful. That decision has already been described as short sighted by many of the scientists that NASA relies on.
Our current plans for space exploration are pitiful when compared to the Lunar effort of the 60's. No long tern manned exploration is on the drawing board in anything other than the most barebone preliminary level. The much touted "manufacturing breakthroughs" that space supposedly offers have proven a bust for the most part. This was one of the main reasons the ISS was hyped early on. Now we have millionaires and rock stars lining up to travel to this useless fixture in space because they can afford to, not because it will further the effort of manned exploration. Other than long term weightless exposure, the ISS offers nothing new except a huge cost.
Disagree with me if you like, but I stand by my comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The space program is not just about exploration. It is not just about "launching our DNA" to some distant locale.
The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc.
To say that it has been a waste is ignorant.
Should we not continue our focus on the present and the near future for fear of the distant future might hold?
What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying?
Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one?
Stand by your statements if you like - and stand among the ignorant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The space program is not just about exploration. It is not just about "launching our DNA" to some distant locale.
The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc. <<<
Some valid points. During Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo there was a definite goal of reaching and exploring the moon and concern about the Soviets getting ahead of us. Earlier space research came up with some of the advancements you stated but no significant breakthrough discoveries have come from the Shuttle program in the last 20 years.
The Space Shuttle program came about with the goal of a cheaper and more efficient way to put man in space with reusable spacecraft and as VQ stated - significant manufacturing breakthroughs which would be a sort of payback. Sounds good -- only problem, like many government projects, is that it has become VERY VERY expensive and didn't provide the paybacks. Many in the scientific community are admitting there has been nothing very significant to have come from the Shuttle program. Scientists are admitting it's been "rinky-dink" science (how ants do in space?) and other relatively minor research and the payback on the cost/risk ratio has been extremely poor. Tell me what the Shuttle has done to make it worth the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars while we have schools falling apart and our elderly people can't afford medical care? Other than some repairs to some satellites I never hear of any dramatic research or breakthroughs having come from the Shuttles -- all I ever see or hear are sumersaults in weightlessness and gorgeous dramatic views of launches and cool looking landings. If NASA wants the Shuttle to continue they better start showing us whatever major breakthrough they apparently have kept secret.
>>>To say that it has been a waste is ignorant. <<<
Again - the cost/reward ratio of anything gained from the Shuttle program is EXTREMELY poor. At the moment I really can't think of any significant research or breakthrough. You are still falling for the hype that was propagated 30 years ago.
>>What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying? <<<
The alternative should be some sort of definitive goal, not just sending people in Space to do minor research for a better form of Saran wrap and see how bumble bees build hives in weightlessness. If there has been any major significant scientific breakthroughs from research on the Shuttle, then NASA sure has done a poor job of publicizing it.
>>Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one? <<<<
A poor connection. Flying planes from one place to another has a needed and necessary GOAL of getting people from one place to another. Very different than the extemely expensive optional Shuttle program with few paybacks and a vague goal.
>>> Just because it is expensive, dangerous...<<<
If something's going to be expensive and dangerous, it better have a good return. I don't see the return.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“There may be only a brief window of opportunity for space travel during which we will in principle have the capability to establish colonies,” Princeton astrophysicist J. Richard Gott III wrote in the journal Nature a decade ago. “If we let that opportunity pass without taking advantage of it, we will be doomed to remain on the Earth, where we will eventually go extinct.”
Just passed along for thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In deference to the sensitivity concerns expressed by others about this discussion on the day the orbiter disintegrated, I held my response to you.
First I would like to believe you misread my response to you. You stated, "The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc. " I agree. But your Corning cookware and yummy Tang were the products of the 60's Gemini and Lunar efforts. Name for me one item that has come from the Mir/ISS program (the combined costs of which has exceeded the US lunar effort in the 60's.) The new flat panel display package on the orbiter Endeavour came from fighter/jetliner technology.
You said, "To say that it has been a waste is ignorant." I never once said it was a waste. I said it will have been all for naught if we aren't successful in getting our DNA into space permanently. We will have improved the lives of a couple generations only to see the human race be snuffed out forever.
After the shock of the shuttle breakup, news reports are surfacing about the very subjects I mentioned (Shuttle costs, NASA program direction, Future manned efforts, etc.) I watched John Pike on Hannity and Colmes discuss the sheer lack of direction at NASA. (John Pike was the former President of the american federation of scientists.) He lambasted NASA for the collosal waste of money that the ISS and STS programs have run and pointed out how much more efficiently the money could have been spent on long term efforts to get a full time manned presence into space. In the first 20 years of space flight we pushed hard and made unprecedented breakthroughs. The last 20 years have barely met our low aims. Much of what the shuttle and ISS does could be accomplished by unmanned misions. Now, with revelations that other STS missions have encountered significant structural damage as a result of reentry heat, the whole STS system is falling under scrutiny.
You said, "Should we not continue our focus on the present and the near future for fear of the distant future might hold?
What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying?
Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one?"
I just think if we risk human life to fly into space it out to be for real scientific research. Knowing how bees fly and ants nest in zero-G is interesting but not worth the cost and risk to human life. Hubble repair missions teach us how to work in space. That's tangible, valuable information.
Even the astronaut corps themselves are starting to speak out about wanting to raise the bar for future mission efforts. On of the female shuttle astronauts killed last weekend is quoted in a new book by Linda Shiner, entitled "Shuttle: The First 20 Years" as hoping the US would commit to a manned program to one of the moons of Jupiter. The author conveyed the astronauts feeling that the current space program is not bold enough --they want to do more but the whole culture regarding risk changed at NASA after Challenger. This revelation is odd considering recent news that the shuttle airframes have been damaged upon reentry many times before.
Even Senator Bill Nelson is planning hearings on NASA'a direction regaring human exploration in upcoing months. Much more about this will become public knowledge in the next few months.
You stated, "Stand by your statements if you like - and stand among the ignorant. "
I simply agree with the assessments offered by the experts involved. If there is any ignorance in this discussion, it is most definitely not on my side of the discussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too want to make it clear that I am not against space exploration but as many point out who are in the field in the scientific community, let's get off the Space Shuttle "treadmill" and make some real progress and move forward.
NASA is doing research in using nuclear power for robotic and manned space exploration. Nuclear power offers several times the energy of chemical rocketry which means being able to enter and leave orbits rather than just fly-bys and can generate plenty of electricity for scanning and sending large data files back to Earth. It's predicted that a nuclear powered mission could send men to Mars in 45 days rather than 6 months. It's time to move on to the next stage and get off the "treadmill".
As the Wall Street Journal says, the results of Shuttle experiments don't even get published in associated scientific journals anymore and the cost/benefit of the Shuttle program is now poor.
A big reason, perhaps the main reason that the US coordinated the "Space Station" with Russia was to keep Russian scientists busy (and paid) so their services wouldn't go to 3rd world terrorist nations after the fall of Soviet Union. The Soviet economy fell apart so the US is now shouldering the majority of the costs. The Soviets are way behind their share of costs and the station is way over budget but it's a good excuse to keep the Soviet scientists in check. Your tax dollars at work.
There needs to be a clean sweep of what we are doing and a new program started.
The STS system is over 20 years old yet we expect it to continue to operate like it was an airliner. That may well be proven ignorant. We know ignorance killed the crew in the Challenger explosion. Many many voices have pointed out the unbelievable costs of the ISS and pointed out how for the same price we could have established a lunar base that would have done far more for extraterrestrial travel than any space station could ever have done. Instead, we aquiesced to the political will of our neighbors in an effort to do the politically expedient rather than the scientifically useful. That decision has already been described as short sighted by many of the scientists that NASA relies on.
Our current plans for space exploration are pitiful when compared to the Lunar effort of the 60's. No long tern manned exploration is on the drawing board in anything other than the most barebone preliminary level. The much touted "manufacturing breakthroughs" that space supposedly offers have proven a bust for the most part. This was one of the main reasons the ISS was hyped early on. Now we have millionaires and rock stars lining up to travel to this useless fixture in space because they can afford to, not because it will further the effort of manned exploration. Other than long term weightless exposure, the ISS offers nothing new except a huge cost.
Disagree with me if you like, but I stand by my comments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The space program is not just about exploration. It is not just about "launching our DNA" to some distant locale.
The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc.
To say that it has been a waste is ignorant.
Should we not continue our focus on the present and the near future for fear of the distant future might hold?
What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying?
Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one?
Stand by your statements if you like - and stand among the ignorant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>The space program is not just about exploration. It is not just about "launching our DNA" to some distant locale.
The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc. <<<
Some valid points. During Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo there was a definite goal of reaching and exploring the moon and concern about the Soviets getting ahead of us. Earlier space research came up with some of the advancements you stated but no significant breakthrough discoveries have come from the Shuttle program in the last 20 years.
The Space Shuttle program came about with the goal of a cheaper and more efficient way to put man in space with reusable spacecraft and as VQ stated - significant manufacturing breakthroughs which would be a sort of payback. Sounds good -- only problem, like many government projects, is that it has become VERY VERY expensive and didn't provide the paybacks. Many in the scientific community are admitting there has been nothing very significant to have come from the Shuttle program. Scientists are admitting it's been "rinky-dink" science (how ants do in space?) and other relatively minor research and the payback on the cost/risk ratio has been extremely poor. Tell me what the Shuttle has done to make it worth the HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars while we have schools falling apart and our elderly people can't afford medical care? Other than some repairs to some satellites I never hear of any dramatic research or breakthroughs having come from the Shuttles -- all I ever see or hear are sumersaults in weightlessness and gorgeous dramatic views of launches and cool looking landings. If NASA wants the Shuttle to continue they better start showing us whatever major breakthrough they apparently have kept secret.
>>>To say that it has been a waste is ignorant. <<<
Again - the cost/reward ratio of anything gained from the Shuttle program is EXTREMELY poor. At the moment I really can't think of any significant research or breakthrough. You are still falling for the hype that was propagated 30 years ago.
>>What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying? <<<
The alternative should be some sort of definitive goal, not just sending people in Space to do minor research for a better form of Saran wrap and see how bumble bees build hives in weightlessness. If there has been any major significant scientific breakthroughs from research on the Shuttle, then NASA sure has done a poor job of publicizing it.
>>Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one? <<<<
A poor connection. Flying planes from one place to another has a needed and necessary GOAL of getting people from one place to another. Very different than the extemely expensive optional Shuttle program with few paybacks and a vague goal.
>>> Just because it is expensive, dangerous...<<<
If something's going to be expensive and dangerous, it better have a good return. I don't see the return.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“There may be only a brief window of opportunity for space travel during which we will in principle have the capability to establish colonies,” Princeton astrophysicist J. Richard Gott III wrote in the journal Nature a decade ago. “If we let that opportunity pass without taking advantage of it, we will be doomed to remain on the Earth, where we will eventually go extinct.”
Just passed along for thought.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In deference to the sensitivity concerns expressed by others about this discussion on the day the orbiter disintegrated, I held my response to you.
First I would like to believe you misread my response to you. You stated, "The space program has been a platform for important research advancements in areas of medicine, microchip development, biology, etc, etc. " I agree. But your Corning cookware and yummy Tang were the products of the 60's Gemini and Lunar efforts. Name for me one item that has come from the Mir/ISS program (the combined costs of which has exceeded the US lunar effort in the 60's.) The new flat panel display package on the orbiter Endeavour came from fighter/jetliner technology.
You said, "To say that it has been a waste is ignorant." I never once said it was a waste. I said it will have been all for naught if we aren't successful in getting our DNA into space permanently. We will have improved the lives of a couple generations only to see the human race be snuffed out forever.
After the shock of the shuttle breakup, news reports are surfacing about the very subjects I mentioned (Shuttle costs, NASA program direction, Future manned efforts, etc.) I watched John Pike on Hannity and Colmes discuss the sheer lack of direction at NASA. (John Pike was the former President of the american federation of scientists.) He lambasted NASA for the collosal waste of money that the ISS and STS programs have run and pointed out how much more efficiently the money could have been spent on long term efforts to get a full time manned presence into space. In the first 20 years of space flight we pushed hard and made unprecedented breakthroughs. The last 20 years have barely met our low aims. Much of what the shuttle and ISS does could be accomplished by unmanned misions. Now, with revelations that other STS missions have encountered significant structural damage as a result of reentry heat, the whole STS system is falling under scrutiny.
You said, "Should we not continue our focus on the present and the near future for fear of the distant future might hold?
What would you suggest the alternative should be? Just because it is expensive, dangerous, or the rate of return might not be up to your standard do you suggest we quit trying?
Should we stop flying planes because one day someone might crash one?"
I just think if we risk human life to fly into space it out to be for real scientific research. Knowing how bees fly and ants nest in zero-G is interesting but not worth the cost and risk to human life. Hubble repair missions teach us how to work in space. That's tangible, valuable information.
Even the astronaut corps themselves are starting to speak out about wanting to raise the bar for future mission efforts. On of the female shuttle astronauts killed last weekend is quoted in a new book by Linda Shiner, entitled "Shuttle: The First 20 Years" as hoping the US would commit to a manned program to one of the moons of Jupiter. The author conveyed the astronauts feeling that the current space program is not bold enough --they want to do more but the whole culture regarding risk changed at NASA after Challenger. This revelation is odd considering recent news that the shuttle airframes have been damaged upon reentry many times before.
Even Senator Bill Nelson is planning hearings on NASA'a direction regaring human exploration in upcoing months. Much more about this will become public knowledge in the next few months.
You stated, "Stand by your statements if you like - and stand among the ignorant. "
I simply agree with the assessments offered by the experts involved. If there is any ignorance in this discussion, it is most definitely not on my side of the discussion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I too want to make it clear that I am not against space exploration but as many point out who are in the field in the scientific community, let's get off the Space Shuttle "treadmill" and make some real progress and move forward.
NASA is doing research in using nuclear power for robotic and manned space exploration. Nuclear power offers several times the energy of chemical rocketry which means being able to enter and leave orbits rather than just fly-bys and can generate plenty of electricity for scanning and sending large data files back to Earth. It's predicted that a nuclear powered mission could send men to Mars in 45 days rather than 6 months. It's time to move on to the next stage and get off the "treadmill".
As the Wall Street Journal says, the results of Shuttle experiments don't even get published in associated scientific journals anymore and the cost/benefit of the Shuttle program is now poor.
A big reason, perhaps the main reason that the US coordinated the "Space Station" with Russia was to keep Russian scientists busy (and paid) so their services wouldn't go to 3rd world terrorist nations after the fall of Soviet Union. The Soviet economy fell apart so the US is now shouldering the majority of the costs. The Soviets are way behind their share of costs and the station is way over budget but it's a good excuse to keep the Soviet scientists in check. Your tax dollars at work.
There needs to be a clean sweep of what we are doing and a new program started.
ex-Tanker
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Gotta object to this "pushing the boundaries" business. The boundaries flown to have been set for a long time. The only one being pushed presently is how long a geriatric spacecraft can fly.
Having said that, hats off to the gallant crew, who have little say in the matter.
Having said that, hats off to the gallant crew, who have little say in the matter.
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As I said before, the best tribute that could be paid to these seven explorers is to increase funding to NASA and ESA.
A manned space program will never be safe. If you had told the original seven Mercury astronauts that there would be only three fatal accidents involving the US space program to the present date, they would never have believed you! This accident needs to be put into perspective, as sad as it is.
I still maintain a manned space program is important, yes NASA needs more direction. No I do not agree these astronauts wasted their lives on a pointless endeavour, as Fire Wall has suggested. Yes I would like to see more exploration of our Oceans as well as space. Yes there is a place for unmanned space exploration.
NASA is a victim of budget cuts not a lack of imagination or desire to push the boundaries. We seem to be living in an age where many are content to experience life through a television or computer screen. As a society we appear to have lost the will to take risks! Very sad!
A manned space program will never be safe. If you had told the original seven Mercury astronauts that there would be only three fatal accidents involving the US space program to the present date, they would never have believed you! This accident needs to be put into perspective, as sad as it is.
I still maintain a manned space program is important, yes NASA needs more direction. No I do not agree these astronauts wasted their lives on a pointless endeavour, as Fire Wall has suggested. Yes I would like to see more exploration of our Oceans as well as space. Yes there is a place for unmanned space exploration.
NASA is a victim of budget cuts not a lack of imagination or desire to push the boundaries. We seem to be living in an age where many are content to experience life through a television or computer screen. As a society we appear to have lost the will to take risks! Very sad!
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Surely the ISS provides a very suitable short/mid term project for NASA, ESA et al provided the right goals are set and funds provided.
The problem for the ISS at present is that it has a crew of 3, 2 of which are tied up in the day to day running of the station leaving just one person to do the science. The original aim of the ISS was a crew of 7 working in several laboratory modules and providing high quality research in several scientific disciplines. Re-focusing on this concept should provide the payback to justify the expenditure.
The problem for the ISS at present is that it has a crew of 3, 2 of which are tied up in the day to day running of the station leaving just one person to do the science. The original aim of the ISS was a crew of 7 working in several laboratory modules and providing high quality research in several scientific disciplines. Re-focusing on this concept should provide the payback to justify the expenditure.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Auckland NZ
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Space Exploration
I had the pleasure of seeing Columbia launch from close quarters on STS83 in spring 1997 whilst delivering a yacht up the Intracoastal Waterway. The vibration and noise together with the sight of the unit lifting off were indeed very memorable, and something to be recommended if the programme regains a footing after the current investigations.
Loss of life is indeed tragic as always, and by the latest reports that the foam has been deemed to be an outside bet as the left wing culprit, there might well be a lengthy delay in recommission.
I believe strongly that if no spaceflights continue, we may well regret whoefully the inabiity to carryout such missions, weather scientific, civillian or military in the near future. It seems that from 'the outside looking in' has proved successful both in scientific (met and science research) and military applications, and has provided the global community with data and solutions that have brought home the fact that we may indeed be damaging the organism on which we inhabit.
I understand the views of all who view the missions with appathy and a certain negativity, but without these brave, highly educated and highly qualified souls who pilot, crew and inhabit the various vehicles and stations, we would still be denied the important information which these crews can report. After all one day, we might need to be up there looking down rather more urgently than the other way around.
I feel deeply sorry for the crews and families involved, but as they have said, carry on exploring and pushing the boundries, its what their loved ones believed in, and deep down I think its only human nature.
Loss of life is indeed tragic as always, and by the latest reports that the foam has been deemed to be an outside bet as the left wing culprit, there might well be a lengthy delay in recommission.
I believe strongly that if no spaceflights continue, we may well regret whoefully the inabiity to carryout such missions, weather scientific, civillian or military in the near future. It seems that from 'the outside looking in' has proved successful both in scientific (met and science research) and military applications, and has provided the global community with data and solutions that have brought home the fact that we may indeed be damaging the organism on which we inhabit.
I understand the views of all who view the missions with appathy and a certain negativity, but without these brave, highly educated and highly qualified souls who pilot, crew and inhabit the various vehicles and stations, we would still be denied the important information which these crews can report. After all one day, we might need to be up there looking down rather more urgently than the other way around.
I feel deeply sorry for the crews and families involved, but as they have said, carry on exploring and pushing the boundries, its what their loved ones believed in, and deep down I think its only human nature.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 38N
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Trial and error is the history of humanity. Certainly that truth holds for aviation. The unavoidable mistakes teach us how to do it better. The avoidable mistakes teach us to be more careful and more humble.
In the prior generation, an 'advanced' spacecraft was a 1-use funnel or cylinder strapped onto an ICBM. The shuttle was a great leap forward from that, and it has done a lot of real work. Merely by existing as a resource it has made things possible that previously were unimaginable. Much of the best stuff does not see daylight, for various reasons, even while NASA stretches credibility with the touchie feelie P/R it spreads around for the Disney generation. The current media approach somewhat trivializes perceptions of the important work that is accomplished.
Acrniz's First Principle of Technology is: if you want to learn how to do something well - start doing it. Automated and robotic systems are fine tools, but the combination of those systems with intelligent and perceptive humans onboard is always going to be better in certain cases. For near-earth exploration, the opportunity cost of not including humans seems too high.
We should be proud and grateful that smart, skillful people are willing to take the ride, even when they know the odds are not really smiling on them.
Something that becomes clearer as inquiry progresses is the relatively great number of items on the 'hopeless' or 'impossible-to-repair' list of life-or-death contingencies in the current vision of shuttle ops.
Seems like we may now be graduating to the next level of 'normalcy' in space travel, where the goal is not just getting there, but also coloring in the support envelope so that a viable rescue / repair process comes to exist for on-call aid to crippled vessels. Support might be provided by hot-standby resources on the ground or a zero-g Roadside Assistance utility stored on or near the space station (the Space Garage). Perhaps the automation folks can also whip up some expendable little 'bots that are available to circle around the craft while in space and eyeball check the critical extremities.
The question is not 'whether to do it', but 'how to do it better'.
In the prior generation, an 'advanced' spacecraft was a 1-use funnel or cylinder strapped onto an ICBM. The shuttle was a great leap forward from that, and it has done a lot of real work. Merely by existing as a resource it has made things possible that previously were unimaginable. Much of the best stuff does not see daylight, for various reasons, even while NASA stretches credibility with the touchie feelie P/R it spreads around for the Disney generation. The current media approach somewhat trivializes perceptions of the important work that is accomplished.
Acrniz's First Principle of Technology is: if you want to learn how to do something well - start doing it. Automated and robotic systems are fine tools, but the combination of those systems with intelligent and perceptive humans onboard is always going to be better in certain cases. For near-earth exploration, the opportunity cost of not including humans seems too high.
We should be proud and grateful that smart, skillful people are willing to take the ride, even when they know the odds are not really smiling on them.
Something that becomes clearer as inquiry progresses is the relatively great number of items on the 'hopeless' or 'impossible-to-repair' list of life-or-death contingencies in the current vision of shuttle ops.
Seems like we may now be graduating to the next level of 'normalcy' in space travel, where the goal is not just getting there, but also coloring in the support envelope so that a viable rescue / repair process comes to exist for on-call aid to crippled vessels. Support might be provided by hot-standby resources on the ground or a zero-g Roadside Assistance utility stored on or near the space station (the Space Garage). Perhaps the automation folks can also whip up some expendable little 'bots that are available to circle around the craft while in space and eyeball check the critical extremities.
The question is not 'whether to do it', but 'how to do it better'.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Greater London
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Shuttle Columbia: contemplation and respect
I watched the day they reported the Apollo fire, my heart sank.
I watched the day WE landed on the moon, my heart sang.
I watched the day they launched Skylab, my heart sang.
I watched the day the first shuttle launched, my heart sang.
I watched the day Challenger was lost, my heart sank.
I watched the day the shuttle restarted, my heart sang.
I watched the day the International Space Station was launched, my heart sang.
I watched the day MIR came back to Mother Earth, my heart sank.
I watched the day Columbia was lost, my heart sank.
I watched all these and more and the USSR too. I watch in awe, admiration, wonder, envy and pride as brave humans dare to explore. I dream of space and the blue marble. I would go up at the drop of a hat.
There is no progress without risk. But I will remember all who lost their lives shooting for the stars. If you’re ever in Arizona visit the memorial at Meteor Crater.
RESPECT.
I watched the day WE landed on the moon, my heart sang.
I watched the day they launched Skylab, my heart sang.
I watched the day the first shuttle launched, my heart sang.
I watched the day Challenger was lost, my heart sank.
I watched the day the shuttle restarted, my heart sang.
I watched the day the International Space Station was launched, my heart sang.
I watched the day MIR came back to Mother Earth, my heart sank.
I watched the day Columbia was lost, my heart sank.
I watched all these and more and the USSR too. I watch in awe, admiration, wonder, envy and pride as brave humans dare to explore. I dream of space and the blue marble. I would go up at the drop of a hat.
There is no progress without risk. But I will remember all who lost their lives shooting for the stars. If you’re ever in Arizona visit the memorial at Meteor Crater.
RESPECT.
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Wivenhoe, not too far from the Clacton VOR
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This says it all. And No, it's not a joke.
