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Virgin Atlantic

Old 20th Apr 2020, 12:43
  #161 (permalink)  
kpd
 
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Branson looking for help VA and Virgin Australia

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52354865
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 12:51
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by qwertyuiop View Post
It would however be a disaster for British aviation if they went under.
Would it? VS are a shadow of their former selves and have been defying financial gravity for years now. Hopefully some other British operator will pick up the slack and their slots when things eventually pick up.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:11
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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Slight thread drift but i'm curious (and i don't work for VS)... Where does everyone's hatred of Necker Island, specifically, come from? And what does it have to do with VS? He bought it for an equivalent present day cost of about $1.2m... hardly a drop in the ocean when compared to the help the airline actually needs...
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:38
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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I dont think the problem is with Necker as such - just that it is a Caribbean tax haven and people who move their business to a Caribbean tax haven to avoid paying tax should not be eligible for taxpayer support.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:43
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Politics of jealousy, some people would rather thousands of staff get made redundant than help a successful business man save his business.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:47
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A320baby View Post
But the businesses do pay tax 🙄🙄

But Branson doesn't. As the majority share holder any government aid to save his business is going to put money directly into his (offshore) pockets.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:49
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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I dont think the problem is with Necker as such - just that it is a Caribbean tax haven and people who move their business to a Caribbean tax haven to avoid paying tax should not be eligible for taxpayer support.
No Virgin business has moved to a Caribbean tax haven. An old bearded man who launched a business empire and continues to receive dividends and other benefits from his old empire lives in the Caribbean where he is tax domiciled. He's not unique and no one really knows what his "personal" wealth is. The DM likes to think he's worth 4.5billion, that is was the book value of his empire. It's all guess work.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:53
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
No Virgin business has moved to a Caribbean tax haven. An old bearded man who launched a business empire and continues to receive dividends and other benefits from his old empire lives in the Caribbean where he is tax domiciled. He's not unique and no one really knows what his "personal" wealth is. The DM likes to think he's worth 4.5billion, that is was the book value of his empire. It's all guess work.

the holding company company for Virgin Atlantic is based in a Caribbean tax haven
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:53
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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I think if we were all honest with ourselves, the overwhelming majority would, given the opportunity to buy an island in the Caribbean and use it as a tax haven for our own personal wealth, do much the same.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:56
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by A320baby View Post
But the businesses do pay tax 🙄🙄
Hmmm, that statement fro RB is corporate speak. Just like Google, Amazon or Apple "We pay tax in each country'. That may be true, but what they don't say is how much they shift profits around so that in any one country they pay a fraction of what you would expect. They do corporate accounting, the profits accumulate in low tax jurisdictions, like the BVI.
So, to summarise he's probably right they do pay some tax, but what he doesn't say is that his holding company, probably in the BVI is incredibly profitable and pays no tax anywhere. All legal.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 13:58
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 14:05
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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I have no love for Branson. I have never worked for VS and was never really impressed when I flew with them.
At a meeting at Crawley about ten years ago, I was quite shocked at how openly Virgin managers expressed their dislike for RB. As for the product/service, I have never much cared for it either, and generally opt for competitors, usually BA. However, I don't see why he should be shamed into propping up an unsustainable business. He might run a charity, but he isn't one himself. Businessmen who get emotionally attached to a failing business tend not to stay rich very long (and for sure, RB has in the past, been emotionally attached to VS, and for its brand value, but I suspect he might be approaching an age where he'd rather let it go and enjoy his retirement).
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 14:41
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.
Do have evidence of that statement?
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 14:41
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Would it? VS are a shadow of their former selves and have been defying financial gravity for years now. Hopefully some other British operator will pick up the slack and their slots when things eventually pick up.
As you say "hopefully" someone else will pick up the slack. Not many other British operators left, let alone ones prepared to jump into the LH market. In the meantime London airways mops up.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:08
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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I do hate redundancies and employment uncertainty. I have been made redundant 3 times, so I know the feeling.
However, RB's personal tax arrangements are going to cause the downfall of Virgin Atlantic. No Government will prop them up whilst he lives tax-free outside the UK.
Once he and Delta have pumped in a billion UKP in cash, each, then they can ask again.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:25
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cashash View Post
But Branson doesn't. As the majority share holder any government aid to save his business is going to put money directly into his (offshore) pockets.
last i heard KL/AF 31% DL 49%. Virgin group 20%. So majority share holder is wrong. Yopr assertion that he would or could pocket the aid if forthcoming is puerile rubbish.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:27
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
I think if we were all honest with ourselves, the overwhelming majority would, given the opportunity to buy an island in the Caribbean and use it as a tax haven for our own personal wealth, do much the same.
My imagination is stretched to capacity, but yes in a similar and amazing position it would be hard not to follow RB's path and buy an island in the Caribbean - we are all human.

Until his wealth, private island and associated trappings are all exhausted the chances of attracting money from the UK tax payer is about zero - they are all human too.

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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:27
  #178 (permalink)  
 
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That KL/AF stake has not been confirmed. It was a "plan".
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:31
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
That I'm guessing is an employment vehicle for him to get his dividends which he is entitled to. Again, the onshore businesses are not shoveling their onshore income abroad like you first insinuated, unlike Apple, Amazon, Google et all.
Virgin uses at least one of the techniques that Apple, Amazon, Google et al use to avoid tax

Virgin brand is licensed by the Caribbean holding company to the various companies around the world, and they pay a royalty for using it - the royalty fee is cost for those businesses so reduces their profits (if they make any), but it's income (and ultimately profit) for the holding company that's in tax free location

Last edited by Andy D; 20th Apr 2020 at 20:35. Reason: Fixed typo "holiday -> "holding"
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 15:32
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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I fear for Virgin Atlantic. I have never understood the allure. 20 years ago some of their SFOs' were seconded to a fledgling easyjet as Captains during one of their periodic slumps. Every crisis seems to turn into an existential battle for them.
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