Su27 Crashes at Airshow in Ukraine
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Accident in Ukraine
The BBC are reporting that a military aircraft has crashed into a stand at an airshow in the Ukraine. According to the BBC the pilots managed to eject but at least forty people are feared dead in the stand. How very, very sad.
Eight Gun Fighter
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67 people now reported killed.
Unfortunately the BBCs moscow correspondant has said that this accident is similar to the TU-144 crash at Paris.
After a couple of similar airshow accidents a few years ago, weren't distance from crowds limitations adopted?
Looking at the video now coming in the pilots ejected only after a wingtip touched the ground.
Unfortunately the BBCs moscow correspondant has said that this accident is similar to the TU-144 crash at Paris.
After a couple of similar airshow accidents a few years ago, weren't distance from crowds limitations adopted?
Looking at the video now coming in the pilots ejected only after a wingtip touched the ground.
Sky report up to 78 killed now. Just saw horrific video on SkyNews. God rest their souls.
Q: What the hell was the aircraft doing flying over the crowd line. I know I know, wait for the enquiry, but please scraping a wing over the static parking area!!
Q: What the hell was the aircraft doing flying over the crowd line. I know I know, wait for the enquiry, but please scraping a wing over the static parking area!!
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Steep dive...low recovery altitude...not much margin for error, and even less should your aircraft go tech. Been too many airshow accidents involving this lethal combination. Isn't that why we changed the rules, to protect pilots and observers?
Sad to think it might have all been different.
Sad to think it might have all been different.
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Was at Fairford a week ago - probably like any airshow, you can't eliminate the risk without moving the spectators a mile or thre from the runway.
Even though none of the aircraft flew over us, it wouldn't have taken much of a "glitch" at 500 knots for the aircraft to deviate enough to be over the crowds.
Sad when this sort of accident happens, but I'd rather take that small risk than be so far away that I need binoculars!
Gotta take some chances - or stop riding in busses! (no pro-Boeing pun intended there)
Even though none of the aircraft flew over us, it wouldn't have taken much of a "glitch" at 500 knots for the aircraft to deviate enough to be over the crowds.
Sad when this sort of accident happens, but I'd rather take that small risk than be so far away that I need binoculars!
Gotta take some chances - or stop riding in busses! (no pro-Boeing pun intended there)
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Apparently it's up to each country to set airshow rules. In the UK the crowd is 400 yards away minimum and the aircraft fly only parallel to the crowd. Ukraine doesn't have the same rules.
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Newton’s 1st law applies at airshows – i.e. it’s pretty obvious that if something goes wrong with your aircraft when you’re on a trajectory that takes you toward the crowd, and if you then can’t change that trajectory, then you’re likely to do some terrible damage.
Now don’t get me wrong because I too love air shows but, by way of analogy, when you take your kids to the circus one hopes that the lions are displayed by the lion-tamer, but one similarly expects that this is done behind bars, such that should a lion have a ‘problem’ it can’t then escape and bite the audience (i.e. it's thrilling to watch but also safe).
However in this instance these people went out with their families to see what should be an exhilarating (and safe) spectacle, and yet end up getting maimed, crippled and killed - let's hope that this is properly investigated and that action is taken to prevent its like again.
Traggic - RIP
Now don’t get me wrong because I too love air shows but, by way of analogy, when you take your kids to the circus one hopes that the lions are displayed by the lion-tamer, but one similarly expects that this is done behind bars, such that should a lion have a ‘problem’ it can’t then escape and bite the audience (i.e. it's thrilling to watch but also safe).
However in this instance these people went out with their families to see what should be an exhilarating (and safe) spectacle, and yet end up getting maimed, crippled and killed - let's hope that this is properly investigated and that action is taken to prevent its like again.
Traggic - RIP
As well as rules to which pilots must adhere at air shows, in the UK we have requirements for pilot qualification and recency, and we police the displays very thoroughly via flying control committees. Rules in themselves are not enough. Therefore, let us look at this tragic accident over a wider perspective than just a set of rules.
So saying, in the UK military and civilian pilots operate to different sets of rules; the display rules for military pilots are laid out in JSP 318 - Military Flying Regulations, and for civilian pilots in CAP 403 - Flying Displays and Special Events: A Guide to Safety and Administrative Arrangements. In addition, many air shows impose more stringent restrictions than those stipulated in the aforementioned documents. We have, sadly, had some accidents at UK air shows in recent years and, although there have been injuries and fatalities involving the aircraft crews, there have been no injuries or fatalities to the crowd when operating to the current rules. Please let there not be a kneejerk reaction to this appalling event.
There will obviously be much speculation as to why this aircraft crashed. One point of interest to observe when watching the video footage is that there were vortices visible over the upper surface of the wing for much of the pullout but then they disappeared just before the left bank was established immediately prior to impact.
My deepest condolences to the families of the deceased and to those injured.
So saying, in the UK military and civilian pilots operate to different sets of rules; the display rules for military pilots are laid out in JSP 318 - Military Flying Regulations, and for civilian pilots in CAP 403 - Flying Displays and Special Events: A Guide to Safety and Administrative Arrangements. In addition, many air shows impose more stringent restrictions than those stipulated in the aforementioned documents. We have, sadly, had some accidents at UK air shows in recent years and, although there have been injuries and fatalities involving the aircraft crews, there have been no injuries or fatalities to the crowd when operating to the current rules. Please let there not be a kneejerk reaction to this appalling event.
There will obviously be much speculation as to why this aircraft crashed. One point of interest to observe when watching the video footage is that there were vortices visible over the upper surface of the wing for much of the pullout but then they disappeared just before the left bank was established immediately prior to impact.
My deepest condolences to the families of the deceased and to those injured.
Just another number
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From the video it looks to me as though the engines cut just before the pull-up, whereas they have always applied full power at this stage in the displays that I have seen.
Airclues
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Just a week ago, I was in Rimini, at the Aviation Museum, and it had a very comprehensive display of aircraft, including a monument to the Three Frecce Tricolori pilots and the 60 od spectators that died at Ramstein after the collision of the three Aermacchis. What made it particularly poignant was the fact that the wreckage of the three aircraft was displayed as part of the memorial....very powerful emotionally.
I thought then, that inevitably, there would be another somewhere someplace, but was stunned to read about this one.
The Air Force Chief's responsible for the district have already been sacked, and the Governments of the area have announced a relief chest for relatives. Right now, I think, it's sympathy and support they need, not money....that will follow, and some positive action to ensure, as far as is possible, that rules are tightened up for this sort of display, to take aircraft away from the crowd line if something, as surely happened here, goes horribly wrong. The two Crew ejected.....I think given the fact that some people have already been sacked may point to the way in which they can expected to be hung drawn and quartered by the brass. It seems to be the vogue....check the Mull of Kintyre.
My heart goes out to the victims. Vale
I thought then, that inevitably, there would be another somewhere someplace, but was stunned to read about this one.
The Air Force Chief's responsible for the district have already been sacked, and the Governments of the area have announced a relief chest for relatives. Right now, I think, it's sympathy and support they need, not money....that will follow, and some positive action to ensure, as far as is possible, that rules are tightened up for this sort of display, to take aircraft away from the crowd line if something, as surely happened here, goes horribly wrong. The two Crew ejected.....I think given the fact that some people have already been sacked may point to the way in which they can expected to be hung drawn and quartered by the brass. It seems to be the vogue....check the Mull of Kintyre.
My heart goes out to the victims. Vale
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In an attempt to get back to the thread (!), it looked to me like the entire incident started much earlier than is shown on most of the video news clips (which stick - not surprisingly - to the crash itself). On Sky they have shown a more complete clip which show the lead up to the incident and it looks to me like there was a failure at the start of the clip which could have been the root cause of the whole thing.
Best wait for the report - nobody ever knows - and guessing won't get us anywhere.
Sympathies to all....
JM
Best wait for the report - nobody ever knows - and guessing won't get us anywhere.
Sympathies to all....
JM
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Captain Airclues
How can you tell from the video that the engine cut out? If you were looking down the jet pipes (which we weren't) you might see if the reheat cut out; thats about it.
All you can do at this stage is to look at the aircrafts trajectory and load factor. During the roll the nose dropped and during the pull-out the vortices off the top surface of the wing were g-induced. The aircraft then hit the ground. The crew ejected approaching impact which probably explains the reduced load factor just prior to impact, its hard to pull the stick and ejection handle at the same time.
All beyond that is unhealthy speculation. Lomcevak is absolutely right lets not get into knee-jerking. All areas need to be looked at including the Ukranian safety rules and the flight data recorders. Previous experience suggests that a good area to start with would be crew qualification and recency as well as the supervisory chain.
Airshow safety has improved in the West over the last few years due to a focus on crowd safety and ensuring that the pilots involved had completed an appropriate work-up and demonstrated the ability to complete the display safely. That doesn't prevent all accidents but it certainly helps in managing the risk. I am not infering that the Ukranian crew were responsible but I am trying to point out that there are a great deal of other factors to consider.
My condolences to the families of the deceased and the injured.
Ghost
How can you tell from the video that the engine cut out? If you were looking down the jet pipes (which we weren't) you might see if the reheat cut out; thats about it.
All you can do at this stage is to look at the aircrafts trajectory and load factor. During the roll the nose dropped and during the pull-out the vortices off the top surface of the wing were g-induced. The aircraft then hit the ground. The crew ejected approaching impact which probably explains the reduced load factor just prior to impact, its hard to pull the stick and ejection handle at the same time.
All beyond that is unhealthy speculation. Lomcevak is absolutely right lets not get into knee-jerking. All areas need to be looked at including the Ukranian safety rules and the flight data recorders. Previous experience suggests that a good area to start with would be crew qualification and recency as well as the supervisory chain.
Airshow safety has improved in the West over the last few years due to a focus on crowd safety and ensuring that the pilots involved had completed an appropriate work-up and demonstrated the ability to complete the display safely. That doesn't prevent all accidents but it certainly helps in managing the risk. I am not infering that the Ukranian crew were responsible but I am trying to point out that there are a great deal of other factors to consider.
My condolences to the families of the deceased and the injured.
Ghost
Last edited by Ghostflyer; 28th Jul 2002 at 13:25.
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"Captain" Airclues...
I am amazed you can tell the workings of an engine from a video... may I congratulate you on your powers of observation and deduction.
Of course, you may have observed the apparent smoke from the engines, that I will agree does appear to cease somewhere in the pull out. Why? Who knows - of course, maybe both engines instantly failed as you confidently deduce? For failed engines, they still make a lot of noise however... I suppose it never occurred to you that possibly reheat was selected at this stage, or just another power setting - surely your great aviation experience leads you to know that smoke is power dependant, and particularly reheat, which almost always eliminates all sign of smoke... (watch Concorde or a Tornado takeoff - smoke starts the moment reheat is disengaged...)
NoD
I am amazed you can tell the workings of an engine from a video... may I congratulate you on your powers of observation and deduction.
Of course, you may have observed the apparent smoke from the engines, that I will agree does appear to cease somewhere in the pull out. Why? Who knows - of course, maybe both engines instantly failed as you confidently deduce? For failed engines, they still make a lot of noise however... I suppose it never occurred to you that possibly reheat was selected at this stage, or just another power setting - surely your great aviation experience leads you to know that smoke is power dependant, and particularly reheat, which almost always eliminates all sign of smoke... (watch Concorde or a Tornado takeoff - smoke starts the moment reheat is disengaged...)
NoD
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I am choosing not to comment as to 'Safety Oversight' however the human aspect of the recent air show crash in Ukraine and this further Moscow incident is all too real...
...there is little or no provision for pensions/compensation for the victims/families of these disasters...right or wrong we can argue separately...
Without a bread winner in Russia/NIS life is tough for the dependants...standard Air Force pension is $12 per month...
God rest all that lost their lives...and may all of us in the industry pull together to help them...they are not aliens they are people in our industry...and very nice people in my experience...
Yes I am angry as all too easy to criticise...but how many of us are actually helping???
PS. A Klimov on reheat produces smoke regardless of reheat or not as do most Russian engines...
...there is little or no provision for pensions/compensation for the victims/families of these disasters...right or wrong we can argue separately...
Without a bread winner in Russia/NIS life is tough for the dependants...standard Air Force pension is $12 per month...
God rest all that lost their lives...and may all of us in the industry pull together to help them...they are not aliens they are people in our industry...and very nice people in my experience...
Yes I am angry as all too easy to criticise...but how many of us are actually helping???
PS. A Klimov on reheat produces smoke regardless of reheat or not as do most Russian engines...
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When watching the horrific event on the news, I am sure I can hear the engines initially at high RPM as it is coming down, is it possible on an SU27 that too high an angle of attack, as seen just before impact, may starve the intakes of air and then the engines flame out? I know aircraft like F-16's have the technology to not allow this state, but how advanced are the ruskies? (and before any smart arse replies, it is a question not an assumption, Im sure there are many theories!) It also looked to me as if at least one of the crew ejected after the ground impact, I hope for their sanity it was not their error which was the cause.
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What I'm about to ask is a very difficult question, and ostensibly insensitive, but it's meant at a philosophical level rather than making any judgement on the specifics of this tragic event.
One sees in front of you a scenario which can only result in a huge loss of life. Do you eject?
This one was put to me in the pub last night, not in a nasty way, more as conversational soul searching.
Some things are easy to figure for most people - say where it's an either-or choice of who's life you jeopardize, say in an EFATO, but this is more complex.
After a good deal of thinking, I do now know what I'd do.
One sees in front of you a scenario which can only result in a huge loss of life. Do you eject?
This one was put to me in the pub last night, not in a nasty way, more as conversational soul searching.
Some things are easy to figure for most people - say where it's an either-or choice of who's life you jeopardize, say in an EFATO, but this is more complex.
After a good deal of thinking, I do now know what I'd do.
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@ simfly:
To answer your question, if very high AoA could lead to an engine stall in a SU-27:
Look at the "Cobra" Maneuvre, if you have seen one at TV or in real life at an airshow. I have only seen this maneuvre performed by SU 27 and MiG 29 aircraft. (F 16s are not able to do this...)
The airplane arrives at 800kph, idles the engines, pulls up very sharply, but doesnt leave a horizontal flightpath, which means AoA is going to 100 deg. The airplane decelerates in horizontal flight with the nose pointing straight up - even a little backwards to 200kph, tilts back forward and engages thrust again to continue slow flight.
So I think, high AoA on a SU 27 has never been a problem.
Russian aerodynamics is far advanced against westerly planes of the same age!
To answer your question, if very high AoA could lead to an engine stall in a SU-27:
Look at the "Cobra" Maneuvre, if you have seen one at TV or in real life at an airshow. I have only seen this maneuvre performed by SU 27 and MiG 29 aircraft. (F 16s are not able to do this...)
The airplane arrives at 800kph, idles the engines, pulls up very sharply, but doesnt leave a horizontal flightpath, which means AoA is going to 100 deg. The airplane decelerates in horizontal flight with the nose pointing straight up - even a little backwards to 200kph, tilts back forward and engages thrust again to continue slow flight.
So I think, high AoA on a SU 27 has never been a problem.
Russian aerodynamics is far advanced against westerly planes of the same age!