B787 diverts do LPLA due ENG problem
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QUOTE: "Engine going to be replaced
If it should only turn out to be an oil pump problem or a leaking oil tube then there'll be no need to change the engine. Swapping out engines is usually a last resort fix due to cost and time.
If it should only turn out to be an oil pump problem or a leaking oil tube then there'll be no need to change the engine. Swapping out engines is usually a last resort fix due to cost and time.
Routing from the Dominican Republic to Manchester; was this flight under ETOPS rules?
If so, not for ETOPS bashing, but what lessons could be learnt; location of malfunction, distance / time taken to diversion?
UK MOR, UK AAIB?
td, it’s OK to retain loyalty to a product, location, etc, by don’t confuse loyalty with safety. My gripes are with the Mods, not products, operators or pilots.
Guidance for high reliability organisations:- pay attention to small events, also defer to expertise.
This event appears to have a successful (safe) outcome … well done crew, operator, et al.
If so, not for ETOPS bashing, but what lessons could be learnt; location of malfunction, distance / time taken to diversion?
UK MOR, UK AAIB?
td, it’s OK to retain loyalty to a product, location, etc, by don’t confuse loyalty with safety. My gripes are with the Mods, not products, operators or pilots.
Guidance for high reliability organisations:- pay attention to small events, also defer to expertise.
This event appears to have a successful (safe) outcome … well done crew, operator, et al.
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Depends how long its been windmilling in flight after shutdown with no positive oil pressure
rolling20 thanks for the update – location and time with engine shutdown (90min) – ETOPS.
The tech problem is reported to be due to oil pressure / oil filter.
Presumably low oil pressure would at least be an amber alert probably resulting in an engine shutdown. However, does the B787 have inflight monitoring for a clogged oil filer available to the crew as is implied elsewhere. If so what type of indication or combination of indications would result in a shut down?
Alternatively are we entering an era of remote in-flight monitoring (Boeing / GE ground stations) where advice might be offered to the crew?
This appears to be the second ‘oil’ event during ETOPS - United routing Tokyo to Denver diverted to Seattle (June).
The tech problem is reported to be due to oil pressure / oil filter.
Presumably low oil pressure would at least be an amber alert probably resulting in an engine shutdown. However, does the B787 have inflight monitoring for a clogged oil filer available to the crew as is implied elsewhere. If so what type of indication or combination of indications would result in a shut down?
Alternatively are we entering an era of remote in-flight monitoring (Boeing / GE ground stations) where advice might be offered to the crew?
This appears to be the second ‘oil’ event during ETOPS - United routing Tokyo to Denver diverted to Seattle (June).
Could this be the first B787 in flight shut down?
Safetypee
OK, some humble pie on my part. When I read the original post I was curious, but the follow on "the SAR staff&devices put on high alert due to a probable ditching at sea. (Wich thankfully didnt occur)." basically did a tilt on my BS meter. I work GEnx - primary concern being the -2B on the 747-8, but minimal differences between the -2B on the 747 and the -1B on the 787 mean we communicate rather freely. By the end of the day Tuesday nobody I'd checked with had heard anything about the incident. Combined with multiple negative web searches, and the blatant sensationalism of the Facebook post, I was honestly wondering how much of the rest was based on fact.
That all changed overnight. Yes, there was a precautionary GEnx-1B shutdown due to low oil pressure and diversion to the Azores. Appears to have been a gearbox problem, and not the first.
But that still means that the shutdown rate of the GEnx-1B remains over two times better than the requirement for 330 minute ETOPS - three shutdowns in ~750k hours (FWIW, the GEnx-2B is even better). It's quite simply the best EIS shutdown rate I've ever seen, and I've been around this for 37 years.
Given the press treatment that the 787 has received, I hope you can understand how I may be a bit defensive, especially when seeing posts such as "the SAR high alert due to a probable ditching at sea."
OK, some humble pie on my part. When I read the original post I was curious, but the follow on "the SAR staff&devices put on high alert due to a probable ditching at sea. (Wich thankfully didnt occur)." basically did a tilt on my BS meter. I work GEnx - primary concern being the -2B on the 747-8, but minimal differences between the -2B on the 747 and the -1B on the 787 mean we communicate rather freely. By the end of the day Tuesday nobody I'd checked with had heard anything about the incident. Combined with multiple negative web searches, and the blatant sensationalism of the Facebook post, I was honestly wondering how much of the rest was based on fact.
That all changed overnight. Yes, there was a precautionary GEnx-1B shutdown due to low oil pressure and diversion to the Azores. Appears to have been a gearbox problem, and not the first.
But that still means that the shutdown rate of the GEnx-1B remains over two times better than the requirement for 330 minute ETOPS - three shutdowns in ~750k hours (FWIW, the GEnx-2B is even better). It's quite simply the best EIS shutdown rate I've ever seen, and I've been around this for 37 years.
Given the press treatment that the 787 has received, I hope you can understand how I may be a bit defensive, especially when seeing posts such as "the SAR high alert due to a probable ditching at sea."
It would seem the Canadian TSB reported that an engine was indeed shut down by the crew, following an "oil filter indication".
I have now, though: CADORS: Report
United, Boeing and GE seem to have done a pretty good job of keeping the shutdown out of the media, referring to it simply as an "oil filter issue".
td, thank you, and for the additional information and clarification, particularly the rates and differences between engines.
Are you able to answer aspects of the question at # 28.
My interest is in the extent of information available to the crew and levels of alerting. Particularly the availability of external assistance – real time reporting / monitoring, which might change/aid crew perspective or complexity in decision making, not only for the 777 but any aircraft with such capabilities. (Concepts of ‘Flt Eng on the ground’, or technological decision aiding.)
e.g. simple cases avoiding additional information – vibration etc
Old systems had engine oil low pressure Red Warning (cross check gauge) = shutdown
Latterly this is supplemented by an Amber Alert, where if the gauge is not in red zone = monitor / idle
In both cases oil-filter clogged (pressure drop across filter) was only available to maintenance, but what might the situation be if crews have access to the filter information, or more.
Modern aircraft appear to have much more information available, to whom, and in what circumstances. Who (or what system) makes the decision of what to display to pilots and who recommends what the action should be. (cf Alaska MD 80 where external advice may not have helped).
Are you able to answer aspects of the question at # 28.
My interest is in the extent of information available to the crew and levels of alerting. Particularly the availability of external assistance – real time reporting / monitoring, which might change/aid crew perspective or complexity in decision making, not only for the 777 but any aircraft with such capabilities. (Concepts of ‘Flt Eng on the ground’, or technological decision aiding.)
e.g. simple cases avoiding additional information – vibration etc
Old systems had engine oil low pressure Red Warning (cross check gauge) = shutdown
Latterly this is supplemented by an Amber Alert, where if the gauge is not in red zone = monitor / idle
In both cases oil-filter clogged (pressure drop across filter) was only available to maintenance, but what might the situation be if crews have access to the filter information, or more.
Modern aircraft appear to have much more information available, to whom, and in what circumstances. Who (or what system) makes the decision of what to display to pilots and who recommends what the action should be. (cf Alaska MD 80 where external advice may not have helped).
This one made it into the mainstream.
Thomson Airways Boeing Dreamliner emergency landing at Azores military base after engine shuts down - Manchester Evening News
Thomson Airways Boeing Dreamliner emergency landing at Azores military base after engine shuts down - Manchester Evening News
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Dave,
Here's another one, from the same source:
JAL flight JA829J Mrch 8th 2014, en route from Tokyo, between Honolulu and San Francisco suffered "dropping oil pressure" and had to limp 930 miles back to Honolulu on one engine.
Here's another one, from the same source:
JAL flight JA829J Mrch 8th 2014, en route from Tokyo, between Honolulu and San Francisco suffered "dropping oil pressure" and had to limp 930 miles back to Honolulu on one engine.
I don't remember anything specific about the United diversion - I know they had a -1B shutdown previously due to a gearbox failure but I don't recall if it's the same one.
The initial information on the Thompson shutdown was a suspected gearbox fault that resulted in a loss of oil pressure (there reported was still plenty of oil when the landed so it wasn't a leak as such). To early to know if it's the same gearbox fault as the previous shutdown. Us 747-8 types don't pay that much attention to the -1B gearbox because that is one part of the engine that is significantly different between the -1B and -2B (due to those two 300 kva generators on the -1B).
On the early FADEC engines (PW2000, PW4000/94", CF6-80C2) the FADEC didn't do much more than run the engine. The latest generation of FADEC does most of the engine monitoring as well - fuel and oil systems, filter delta pressure, engine vibe, etc. Compared to the older systems, where a filter bypass indication was a simple switch, letting the FADEC do it means actual monitoring of the delta pressure with dual channel redundancy (on the older engines, we had a similar number of shutdowns due to false oil filter bypass indications as due to real events). Oil pressure, temp, and quantity are displayed on EICAS, and there is a popup indication if the pressure or temp is outside the normal range.
On the GEnx the real time oil and fuel filter delta P is available on the flight deck, but the pilots are not instructed to go look at it (it requires pull up a specific maintenance page). Rather we have 'full fight data' downloads that allow maintenance to monitor the condition of the filters and plan maintenance accordingly. We also set maintenance messages filters that are getting closer to bypass but still have some life left - again letting them plan appropriate maintenance.
The initial information on the Thompson shutdown was a suspected gearbox fault that resulted in a loss of oil pressure (there reported was still plenty of oil when the landed so it wasn't a leak as such). To early to know if it's the same gearbox fault as the previous shutdown. Us 747-8 types don't pay that much attention to the -1B gearbox because that is one part of the engine that is significantly different between the -1B and -2B (due to those two 300 kva generators on the -1B).
On the early FADEC engines (PW2000, PW4000/94", CF6-80C2) the FADEC didn't do much more than run the engine. The latest generation of FADEC does most of the engine monitoring as well - fuel and oil systems, filter delta pressure, engine vibe, etc. Compared to the older systems, where a filter bypass indication was a simple switch, letting the FADEC do it means actual monitoring of the delta pressure with dual channel redundancy (on the older engines, we had a similar number of shutdowns due to false oil filter bypass indications as due to real events). Oil pressure, temp, and quantity are displayed on EICAS, and there is a popup indication if the pressure or temp is outside the normal range.
On the GEnx the real time oil and fuel filter delta P is available on the flight deck, but the pilots are not instructed to go look at it (it requires pull up a specific maintenance page). Rather we have 'full fight data' downloads that allow maintenance to monitor the condition of the filters and plan maintenance accordingly. We also set maintenance messages filters that are getting closer to bypass but still have some life left - again letting them plan appropriate maintenance.
Here's another one, from the same source:
JAL flight JA829J Mrch 8th 2014, en route from Tokyo, between Honolulu and San Francisco suffered "dropping oil pressure" and had to limp 930 miles back to Honolulu on one engine.
JAL flight JA829J Mrch 8th 2014, en route from Tokyo, between Honolulu and San Francisco suffered "dropping oil pressure" and had to limp 930 miles back to Honolulu on one engine.