China Airlines B747 Crash (Merged)

[smiths]

A few pages back, it was mentioned that the F/O was still strapped to his seat. However, there was no mention of the bodies of the captain and the F/E. Is there any idea if they have been located? Also, can someone be kind enough to point me to the web site where I can locate the CVR transcript?

Thanks.

[JohnBarrySmith]

One is a lonely number

Below from pdf of 611 CVR
I also wait with anticipation of observations from Firehorse about status of four midspan latches of two cargo doors.

6/29/2002 PAGE12
07:16:36 CAM2 thank you
07:16:37 CAM1 -- •••-- kadlo --
07:16:40 CAM2 ••••••••
07:16:41 CAM3 -- ••••
07:16:42 CAM2 •••••kadlo
07:16:54 CAM -- ••--
07:16:57 CAM1 •••
07:16:57 CAM2 •••••
07:17:04 CAM ••••••
07:17:10 CAM2 ••••••
07:17:15 CAM okay
07:17:21 CAM1 •••••••••
07:17:23 CAM2 ••••
07:17:23 CAM --
07:17:24 CAM3 •••••••••
07:17:27 CAM2 •••••
07:17:29 CAM3 •••••
07:17:29 CAM2 •••••
07:17:30 CAM •••--
07:17:35 CAM1 thank you
07:18:27 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:18:34 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:18:57 CAM1 -- •direct ••
07:19:00 CAM --
07:19:01 CAM2 -- •••••--•••chali •--
07:19:05 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:19:06 CAM2 ••••••••--
07:19:26 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:20:17 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:20:23 ACC (conversation with EF 126)
07:20:26 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:20:30 B7 608 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:20:33 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:20:34 ACC (conversation with B7 608)
07:20:37 B7 608 (conversation with TPE ACC)
AVIATION SAFETY COUNCIL
6/29/2002 PAGE13
ACC
Time
SOURCE CONTENT
07:20:39 ACC (conversation with B7 608)
07:20:52 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:02 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:03 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:06 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:06 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:10 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:13 CAM (sound similar to signal interference)
07:21:49 CAM3 okay its okay
07:21:50 CAM1 thank you
07:21:50 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:21:53 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:21:59 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:22:05 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:22:09 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:22:12 (unidentified sound similar to squelch break)
07:22:16 GE 536 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:22:20 MFXXX (conversation with another unknown flight until
00:27:20)
07:22:21 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:22:23 ACC (conversation with GE 536)
07:22:28 GE 536 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:22:42 CAM2 ••--
07:23:02 CAM2 •-- ••
07:23:06 CAM1 thank you
07:23:07 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:23:13 CAM2 ••atis ••••••••••direct ••••••
••••••••••
07:23:19 ACC (conversation with B7 608)
07:23:23 B7 608 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:23:26 ACC (conversation with BR 817)
07:23:30 BR 817 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:23:33 ACC (conversation with TG 7078)
07:23:39 TG 7078 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:23:41 ACC (conversation with AE271)
AVIATION SAFETY COUNCIL
ACC
Time
SOURCE CONTENT
07:23:46 AE271 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:24:09 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:24:51 ACC (conversation with B7 608)
07:24:54 B7 608 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:24:55 CAM (sound similar to yawn)
07:26:15 ACC (conversation with EF 126)
07:26:20 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:26:23 ACC (conversation with EF 126)
07:26:24 CAM1 two thousand
07:26:26 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:26:31 XX 057 (conversation with XX FOC)
07:26:35 ACC (conversation with EF 126)
07:26:38 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:26:39 XX FOC (conversation with XX 057)
07:26:42 XX 057 (conversation with XX FOC)
07:26:49 XX FOC (conversation with XX 057)
07:26:53 XX 057 (conversation with XX FOC)
07:26:59 XX FOC (conversation with XX 057)
07:27:05 CX 418 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:27:08 ACC (conversation with CX 418)
07:27:15 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:27:32 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:27:36 ACC (conversation with EF 126)
07:27:38 CAM (sound similar to altitude alert)
07:27:39 CAM (unidentified sounds)
07:27:39 EF 126 (conversation with TPE ACC)
07:27:45 CAM (unidentified sound)
07:28:02 CAM (unidentified sound, end of CVR)

[canuck slf]

After reading about the CI 611 CVR initial findings I am curious as to whether CVRs pick up noise via the structure as well as air borne noise?
If they are fairly rigidly mounted to the structure this would enable them to pick up noise which is normally inaudible due to the background ambient noise ie skin creeping prior to failure.
It would also be interesting to know if the Aloha "convertible"
737 CVR recorded similiar noises as the skin failed.

Thanks in advance
Regards

[JohnBarrySmith]

six is the number of 747 solo inflight breakups

The Aloha 737 CVR tape would be of interest. So would the United Airlines Flight 811 CVR tape and both are unavailable for analysis for sounds.

Some of your questions have been examined in detail in other Boeing 747 inflight breakup AARs.

Hull rupture in flight: Air India Flight 182

Below are from CASB AAR for AI 182 and note that although the best evidence, the CVR, reveals no bomb explosion, the conclusion of the media and the RCMP is bomb and three are on trial for blowing the plane up.

Also note match of the pressurization warning sound of DC 10 which may match the ‘altitude alert’ sound for China Airlines Flight 611.

Note match of comment of ‘human cry’ on Air India Flight 182 and the ‘groan’ and ‘heartbeats’ for China Airlines Flight 611.

“07:27:38 CAM (sound similar to altitude alert)” for China Airlines Flight 611

From Air India Flight 182 AAR:
“On the DC-10, the pressurization audio warning sounded 2.2 seconds after the decompression.

The AIB report concluded that the analysis of the CVR and ATC recordings showed no evidence of a high-explosive device having been detonated on AI 182.

3.4.6.7 Mr. B. Caiger's Report and Deposition
Mr. Caiger has said in his report that the Cockpit Area Microphone signal was studied in detail. According to him, in an aircraft, sound can be transmitted by multiplicity of paths. If an explosive device was located close to the microphone then the short wave from the disturbance would cause a sharp rise in pressure which was not noticed. From more remote location, however, structurally transmitted sounds could reach the microphone first and induce more complex signals. According to Mr. Caiger, at this time he did not have any evidence from occurrences of this nature that would permit any meaningful comparisons or conclusions.

"Listening to the sounds, it also appears that a human cry occurs near the end of the recordings. Spectral analysis of these sounds and comparison with voice limitations reveals that the accident sounds do not contain all the pitch harmonic frequencies normally associated with such voice sounds. The origin of all the sounds has not been identified."

3.4.6.16 In conclusion, Mr. Davis reported as follows :-
"It is considered that from the CVR and ATC recordings supplied for analysis, there is no evidence of a high explosive device having detonated on AI 182.
"There is strong evidence to suggest that a sudden explosive decompression occurred but the cause has not been identified.
"Although there is no evidence of a high-explosive device, the possibility cannot be ruled out that a detonation occurred in a location remote from the flight deck and was not detected on the microphone. Such a situation would be most unusual, if not unique, in that we have never failed to detect sounds of structural failure, decompression, explosives etc., on any accident CVR, even though the event occurred at the rear of the aircraft. If such a device was used on AI 182 it is considered that it would have to be a very small device in order not to be detected (unlikely in itself). Such a device would be unlikely to cause the sudden total destruction which occurred in this instance. It is considered that a device of sufficient power to produce this effect could not fail to be detected on the CVR. The B-747 explosions referred to earlier, blew holes several feet wide in the structure but the crew were still able to control and operate the aircraft.”

[HotDog]

John, the 747 cabin altitude warning is an intermittent horn with a tonal frequency of 220 to 280 Hz and is identical to the unsafe takeoff warning. The warning will persist untill cancelled by the ALT HORN CUTOUT button on the pressurization control module on the the FE's panel. The altitude alert warning is a C chord output which consists of three tones of 461-563Hz, 576-704Hz and 691-845Hz. The duration of the chord is 1.5 to 2.5 seconds and cannot possibly be mistaken for loss of cabin pressure. I'm sure I don't have to point out that the Altitude Alert is a NAV function and has nought to do with cabin altitude.

[JohnBarrySmith]

The altitude alert tone can not be confused with cabin pressurization alert tone.

Thanks, good to know.

Why would the altitude alert tone sound off for 611? What does the altitude alert warning tone alert the crew about?

[HotDog]

I thought someone might ask this question, hence the edit on my previous post.

The Altitude Alert System (AAS) provides aural and visual signals to the pilots when the airplane approaches or deviates from a selected [airplane] altitude. Selected altitude is set by the ALT SEL control on the autopilot-flight director mode select panel.

[lomapaseo]

>After reading about the CI 611 CVR initial findings I am curious as to whether CVRs pick up noise via the structure as well as air borne noise?
If they are fairly rigidly mounted to the structure this would enable them to pick up noise which is normally inaudible due to the background ambient noise <


Yes, the CVR picks up structure borne noise via the fixed mike in the cockpit. It also will record spectral signals (played back as noises) which emanate from electrical annomalies in the bus circuits.

I understand that the CVR from 611 has been sent to the NTSB for comparison with hull rupture event CVRs. I'm optomistic that since the CVR lasted a trifle longer than the FDR that it may be of significant interest.

[Anti Skid On]

Thank you gentlemen for keeping this a most factual thread - here's a thought/question.

If the aircraft did 'peel' its skin, would this result in small fragments or large fragments? The drag from this should have caused some decelleration, and possibly loss of altitude - was this the case? (What I am trying to get at is thatonce the initial peel starts, does it increase exponentially?)

[PickyPerkins]

I finally got my Reader to read Traditional Chinese and have incorporated time synchronization data into the link below and added another page.

http://home.infionline.net/~blueblue

bblank: I came up with a probable breakup point after point 5, but not as much as 26 s. after.

[bblank]

"The drag from this should have caused some decelleration, and possibly
loss of altitude - was this the case?"

ASO, Neither happened while the FDR was working. After that the radar data
is confusing (I think).

Picky, the vertical line in the synchronization chart that passes through
your point 7 is described only in Chinese. Earlier in this thread Peanut
Butter said that the break-up occured 26s after the CVR stopped and this
line comes 26s after. Point 7, of course, requires explanation.

[PickyPerkins]

bblank Thanks for your comment. I just went back and looked at what Peanut Butter said on 26 June. I think we may be missing a decimal point here. Here is what he actually said:

------ Quote ----------
An extra note: The cockpit A/P MCP (or FCU) shows the autopilot was disengaged but the FDR and the CVR (no aural warning) failed to show that. (and please note that there is only a 0.26 sec interval between CVR stoppage and the breakup of the a/c)
----- End quote ------

[bblank]

Picky, I think that's just how PB writes things. Two posts earlier than
the one you refer to he wrote "FDR tape ends earlier (0.06 seconds) than
CVR." In this statement he clearly meant 6 seconds so I figured he meant
26 seconds in the later statement, not 0.26s.

If anybody wants to see the multi-data synchronization Picky has posted
it on his site. Two events, one at 7:28:17(??) and one at 7:28:29 (break-up?),
are identified only in Chinese. The first of these two times is about the
time the the military radar first indicated something was very wrong (15:28:43
in the original table or 7:28:15 in the synchronization). Anyone able to
translate?

[canuck slf]

Re CVRs. Is it possible the heart beat is just that, e.g. somebodies chest in contact with the structure near the CVR?

I have been wondering if there is a case for higher tech CVRs. They are now being used for much more than the original voice recording task. If they were fitted with a wider spectrum recording device and had a geophone type of device fitted directly onto the structure they would then record a lot more info without additional wiring etc? This might be a method of getting more info out of older AC by only refitting the existing devices. Some accidents seem to be getting into more obscure causes, due to the elimination of the basic causes. By definition they are bound to involve more of the older AC i.e. unexpected age/cycle related faults, with less informative FDRs. The Airbus FDRs apparently record many more parameters, but this would be prohibitively expensive on older AC and still may not pick up relevant info.

[stickyb]

The best translation I can give you at the moment of the chinese text under the 7.28.17 event is "High or Height Disappear"
(Could it mean altitude data disappears?)

Hope this helps?

I can't make out the other text sufficiently clearly, due to the limitations of the jpg file posted by PP, but it looks like it is could be "xxx disappear". Will go back to the original pdf and check it out.

[bblank]

Thanks stickyb

The link to the ASC's pdf file with FDR info was posted by
Peanut Butter on page 15 of this thread but so that you don't
have to go looking for it click here.

It is about a 4500K download. The synchronization is on page 14.
If you do not want to download the entire file I have enlarged
the particular page in question and posted it here with further
enlargements of the Chinese chracters:
Multidata Synchronization

[stickyb]

Thanks bblank, I was just editing my last post when you put yours on.
The best I can give you for the 7.28.29 characters are "Sign (or code or signal) disappear.
I am afraid that's the best I can do at the moment, and I won''t try to guess what it means.
If anyone else has a better translation, please correct me.

[ITman]

My Chinese wife states that the Chinese after 07:28:17 means Highest stage then dissapear, and the Chinese after 07:28:29 means Standard level stage and then dissapear. Sorry it is not more enlightening.

[lunkenheimer]

I showed the Chinese legends to a friend of mine who is from China, and her translation was "altitude disappear" at 7:28:17, and "mark disappear" at 7:28:29. She wasn't as sure about the right word for 'mark' in this context, though. Just another grain of information...

[PickyPerkins]

This chart was published by ASC 19 June, but is new to me. It shows the positions of the FDR, CVR, tail section, and the main wreckage.
http://pickyperkins.home.infionline....08-03-2002.jpg