Airtours captain sacked for flyby
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Yes Koi, I would be really grateful if you could answer the questions I asked on page one of this thread....Much appreciated as I still reckon that this pilot has been punished a little harshly for whatever went on and that nobody at the time on board the aircraft protested...or did they?
Controversial, moi?
<<I'd be seriously concerned if I believed, as M. Mouse seems to think, that the average (non 'ace') airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a simle fly-by.
And why assume he didn't plan it thoroughly and competently? >>
I am indeed assuming that it wasn't thoroughly planned because if they are unofficial or against the rules they arely are. I was not implying that the average airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a fly-by but I was implying that an ad-hoc manouevre of this type is recipe for disaster.
If it is such a non-event then why do most companies expressly forbid it?
Out of interest I have been in the right hand seat of a 40 seat turbo-prop doing a very, very low fly-by at a grass airfield. I would have been more comfortable had it not been done to massage the ego of the pilot flying and impress his former flying club colleagues. It would also been a little less alarming had the GPWS circuit breakers been pulled before a myriad of automatic warnings occurred just at the point of beginning the impromptu, and in my mind therefore dangerous, display.
As far as passengers are concerned (even if they are just positioning crew) I equate it to being driven at high speed by somebody else. You are not in control yourself and for that reason alone it can be a very uncomfortable situation.
And why assume he didn't plan it thoroughly and competently? >>
I am indeed assuming that it wasn't thoroughly planned because if they are unofficial or against the rules they arely are. I was not implying that the average airline captain wasn't capable of safely executing a fly-by but I was implying that an ad-hoc manouevre of this type is recipe for disaster.
If it is such a non-event then why do most companies expressly forbid it?
Out of interest I have been in the right hand seat of a 40 seat turbo-prop doing a very, very low fly-by at a grass airfield. I would have been more comfortable had it not been done to massage the ego of the pilot flying and impress his former flying club colleagues. It would also been a little less alarming had the GPWS circuit breakers been pulled before a myriad of automatic warnings occurred just at the point of beginning the impromptu, and in my mind therefore dangerous, display.
As far as passengers are concerned (even if they are just positioning crew) I equate it to being driven at high speed by somebody else. You are not in control yourself and for that reason alone it can be a very uncomfortable situation.
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Just got back from a nightmare trip and am quite surprised to see the reaction this question has generated.
KOI I appreciate that you would not wish to elaborate on a public forum but may I ask if you feel the captain deserved to be sacked?
KOI I appreciate that you would not wish to elaborate on a public forum but may I ask if you feel the captain deserved to be sacked?
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Personally I wouldn't want to take $10,000,000 - $200,000,000 worth of someone else's hi-tech hardware anywhere they weren't paying me to take it, no matter how godlike I think my flying abilities are, unless it was specifically authorised and well planned.
If you want excitement, get a Suzuki GSX-R 1000. It beats the crap out of flying airliners around.
If you really have to get your kicks whilst flying, then join the Military and get paid for flying things like Eurofighter Typhoon or EH Merlins; but then you'd have to put up with all the military crap.
I certainly won't be doing any low flypasts in airliners with a mortgage the size of mine!
If you want excitement, get a Suzuki GSX-R 1000. It beats the crap out of flying airliners around.
If you really have to get your kicks whilst flying, then join the Military and get paid for flying things like Eurofighter Typhoon or EH Merlins; but then you'd have to put up with all the military crap.
I certainly won't be doing any low flypasts in airliners with a mortgage the size of mine!
"The INTRODUCER"
Flap 40/Skippyscage
yup, I'd say that's the White Waltham event - the glorious summer of '78 when I was doing my Flying Scholarship there. I believe the beautiful bird is being flown by Capt Townsend-Smith, whose son Martin was later to join the RAF. Still out there Martin?
Anyone remember the One-Eleven between the hangars and offices at Hurn, late 70s/early 80s. Also an imminent retirement as I recall.
yup, I'd say that's the White Waltham event - the glorious summer of '78 when I was doing my Flying Scholarship there. I believe the beautiful bird is being flown by Capt Townsend-Smith, whose son Martin was later to join the RAF. Still out there Martin?
Anyone remember the One-Eleven between the hangars and offices at Hurn, late 70s/early 80s. Also an imminent retirement as I recall.
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Don't know if this happens in any other companies, but if we have any spare time in the sim after our OPC/LPC/whatever they want to call it this time, we quite often have a little tool around. Whether it be a race around the rock of Gibralter (take off, circuit to land and stop asap), low level through some open hangers or down a Swiss valley at sim speed x4.
It's all good fun and done in the spirit of "improving advanced handling techniques".
Can't say I've used what I've learnt from these 'exercises' yet, and I hope not to, but it does show you some of the capabilities and limits of the aircrafts manoeuvrability.
I'm sure this fly-by/low go around effort was within the realms of safety in terms of the aircrafts envelope; but I'm still not sure whether this guy took the best option, so to speak.
If he wanted to impress, then throw a party to celebrate the end of the contract, don't risk your mortgage
It's all good fun and done in the spirit of "improving advanced handling techniques".
Can't say I've used what I've learnt from these 'exercises' yet, and I hope not to, but it does show you some of the capabilities and limits of the aircrafts manoeuvrability.
I'm sure this fly-by/low go around effort was within the realms of safety in terms of the aircrafts envelope; but I'm still not sure whether this guy took the best option, so to speak.
If he wanted to impress, then throw a party to celebrate the end of the contract, don't risk your mortgage
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All exciting stuff - if it's authorised whats the problem??!
Does it really take years off an airliners life in terms of fatigue??
Love the VC10 shot too, bet there was a roar from those conways shortly afterwards!!
I think 2 of the most exciting flyby's I've seen were as a young teen at the Biggin Hill airshow's in the early 80's.
One was of Sally B ,much loved B-17 who disappeared into that dip at the Southerly end of the runway for what seemd like heart stopping silent minutes , then came roaring out at a v high angle of attack, feet from the ground, and carried on down the runway.
Notably v loud gasp's from the crowd!!
Also at BHill, 80's again --if anyone was there ?- - A British Airtours TriStar made an appearance - revenue flight-(departing/arriving LGW) made a slow graceful for approach for an intended flypast - and to the astonishment of the commentator/crowd, did a cheeky touch'n'go !!!! Was a giant compared to the surrounding aircraft/buildings!Anyone remember?
Are of these recent US 777 flypast pix available?!
Does it really take years off an airliners life in terms of fatigue??
Love the VC10 shot too, bet there was a roar from those conways shortly afterwards!!
I think 2 of the most exciting flyby's I've seen were as a young teen at the Biggin Hill airshow's in the early 80's.
One was of Sally B ,much loved B-17 who disappeared into that dip at the Southerly end of the runway for what seemd like heart stopping silent minutes , then came roaring out at a v high angle of attack, feet from the ground, and carried on down the runway.
Notably v loud gasp's from the crowd!!
Also at BHill, 80's again --if anyone was there ?- - A British Airtours TriStar made an appearance - revenue flight-(departing/arriving LGW) made a slow graceful for approach for an intended flypast - and to the astonishment of the commentator/crowd, did a cheeky touch'n'go !!!! Was a giant compared to the surrounding aircraft/buildings!Anyone remember?
Are of these recent US 777 flypast pix available?!
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So Koi, you were on the flight which according to an earliier post was just ground support personnel and engineers, but your profile says you are a pilot. Would I be right in thinking that you were a management pilot, or just an innocent bystander?If so, what steps did you take in supervising or preventing the flyby and in that case, between you and the pilot concerned,who reported it to the Company? I ask this because as mentioned earlier, the Captain had permission from the airfield so it seems unlikely that someone on the ground complained.
You also mentioned in your post what a shame for all 'the others affected by a person's selfish action, not least those who have to clear up afterwards and those onto whom the mess gets flung'.
Surely if the flyby was taken in the spirit which it was flown, that is, (according to original post), 'on completion of the Haj contract', no mess would have been generated and a possible'ticking off' more appropriate.
This whole situation seems to me to have been completely blown out of proportion.
You also mentioned in your post what a shame for all 'the others affected by a person's selfish action, not least those who have to clear up afterwards and those onto whom the mess gets flung'.
Surely if the flyby was taken in the spirit which it was flown, that is, (according to original post), 'on completion of the Haj contract', no mess would have been generated and a possible'ticking off' more appropriate.
This whole situation seems to me to have been completely blown out of proportion.
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Whats the definition of a flyby? If the guy in question did it at 30 feet then yes hes an idiot.. but if he did it at 500-1000 feet then its not unsafe. Everybody has done a flyby of sorts in their careers and this not the sole domein of som armed force trained nigel 
What is a missed approach or balked landing if not a flyby? "trained to do flybys.." good grief.. It must have been a miracle that I survived flying down the grass strip before landing on it with the kingair..(Checking for field-mice and such..)
Without knowing the details or seeing it myself I reserve any opnion whether or not he was unsafe.
What is a missed approach or balked landing if not a flyby? "trained to do flybys.." good grief.. It must have been a miracle that I survived flying down the grass strip before landing on it with the kingair..(Checking for field-mice and such..)Without knowing the details or seeing it myself I reserve any opnion whether or not he was unsafe.
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koi,
Everyone there knew about the plans for the fly by, so i presume you must have as well. If so why did you not have a quite chat with the captain and explain the consequences of going through with it, and explain that you really wern't happy with it? I'm sure that if you did he would not have gone ahead with it. if you were really that against it why did you not jump on one of the earlier two flights? I can only assume that you both have an axe to grind.
It is a real pity he has lost his carreer because you couldn't have a quite chat over a beer.
Everyone there knew about the plans for the fly by, so i presume you must have as well. If so why did you not have a quite chat with the captain and explain the consequences of going through with it, and explain that you really wern't happy with it? I'm sure that if you did he would not have gone ahead with it. if you were really that against it why did you not jump on one of the earlier two flights? I can only assume that you both have an axe to grind.
It is a real pity he has lost his carreer because you couldn't have a quite chat over a beer.